#41. Terri Vroman Little: Embracing Montessori and Marathon Spirit in Humboldt County

Scott Hammond: Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome to my new best fr- friend, Terri Vroman, to the 100% Humboldt podcast.

Scott Hammond: Hi, Terri.

Terri Vroman Little: Hi. Can I correct my name?

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: It's Vroman Little.

Scott Hammond: Vroman Little.

Terri Vroman Little: It is, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Thank you. You absolutely can correct your name. Uh, welcome to the show.

Terri Vroman Little: Thank you.

Scott Hammond: How are you?

Terri Vroman Little: I'm glad to be here. Um, I'm really excited.

Scott Hammond: Everybody said you're gonna be the amazing guest. I never lead with that. I've never said that.

Terri Vroman Little: All right.

Scott Hammond: So-

Terri Vroman Little: Well, I'll try.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. No, you're gonna do great. Tell us how you got into Humboldt.

Terri Vroman Little: I, um… It's kind of a, a backstory from leaving Michigan-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … as, uh, I had li- lived and gone to high school in Michigan, and had just had it with, um, winters. I lasted one winter out of high school, and I absolutely didn't wanna go to college, and so I just up and left and made my way to California.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: And then I landed in California with 20 bucks and a suitcase, which is not really a sustainable way to live in California.

Scott Hammond: No.

Terri Vroman Little: So, um, the California Conservation Corps was hiring at the time.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: So I got a job, um, in San Luis Obispo at the CCC center there.

Scott Hammond: Nice. Down in SLO.

Terri Vroman Little: SLO, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Did you arrive in SLO when you came to California?

Terri Vroman Little: Eventually. It was a… I had taken a job selling magazine sc- subscriptions door to door-

Scott Hammond: Oh, yeah, that one

Terri Vroman Little: … with this pretty sketchy group. I mean, looking back on that, I would be horrified if any of my kids thought to do

Terri Vroman Little: that.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: But I did, and I went from Michigan and made, uh, my way all the way west and-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Terri Vroman Little: … got to Oregon, got, saw the ocean-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … and the next morning I thought, "Mm, I cannot do this even one more day."

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: So.

Scott Hammond: 'Cause Oregon's still cold, like, sometimes, like, not quite like Michigan, but-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, but it was just the whole knocking on doors and telling-

Scott Hammond: Ah

Terri Vroman Little: … the story, and the people most likely-

Scott Hammond: I remember

Terri Vroman Little: … to give me money were the least likely… Like, they should not be giving me money.

Scott Hammond: Right. Yeah, I remember that.

Scott Hammond: That was a-

Terri Vroman Little: Ugh

Scott Hammond: … a thing.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Kirby, Kirby vacuums-

Terri Vroman Little: Right

Scott Hammond: … magazines.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Back in Iowa, where it's super cold-

Terri Vroman Little: Oh

Scott Hammond: … we had the Fuller Brush Man, and we had a milk man, an ice cream man, a Fuller Brush Man. Some other guy came by with

Scott Hammond: something back in the day, so.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So you, so CCC.

Terri Vroman Little: So CCC, and that, um… I had worked in the Youth Conservation Corps in Michigan for a summer-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … and I hadn't really fully thought of myself as an outdoorsy person, but clearly I am.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: And so I got to work on a fish and game crew for a while.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: And then, um, kind of a pivotal moment for my life was, um, I applied to be on a backcountry trails crew.

Terri Vroman Little: And so, uh, I don't know why they took me 'cause I was smoking cigarettes and, like, uh, not in great shape. But they took me, and so I went to Kings Canyon National Park

Terri Vroman Little: in 1982-

Scott Hammond: Oh, yeah. Beautiful

Terri Vroman Little: … and, um, worked on trail crew, lived out of a tent.

Scott Hammond: Is that by Sequoia, out that way?

Terri Vroman Little: Mm-hmm.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, yeah. It was.

Scott Hammond: Tulare, out that, Visalia.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, just up out of Fresno.

Terri Vroman Little: That was-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Terri Vroman Little: … kinda the last town.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, Joni's from, my wife's from Porterville, south of there.

Terri Vroman Little: There you go.

Scott Hammond: Oh, she corrects me. She's not from there. She lived there for a time.

Terri Vroman Little: There you go.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Good place to, another good place to be from.

Terri Vroman Little: Yes. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: So, um, I was a back-of-the-pack hiker, which I did not like-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … because apparently I'm competitive sometimes, too.

Scott Hammond: Oh.

Terri Vroman Little: So I quit smoking and got okay at trail work, and-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Terri Vroman Little: … just the living in the wilderness and the work ethic specifically in Kings Canyon National Park was-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … um, amazing.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. How long were you up there in the woods?

Terri Vroman Little: It was a six-month program, and so we were in the, like, in the wilderness for a good four months probably, maybe five, but we-

Scott Hammond: Just living in camps?

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, and getting resupplied mostly by helicopters back in those days.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: That's really tapered off. We actually got flew in by a helicopter, which-

Scott Hammond: That's cool

Terri Vroman Little: … that doesn't happen now. You hike, but-

Scott Hammond: Right

Terri Vroman Little: … times were different.

Scott Hammond: You have to walk in, so.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Is that on Pacific Coast Crest Trail, has to go through there?

Terri Vroman Little: It does, yeah, and the John Muir Trail, both.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: It's a beautiful park.

Terri Vroman Little: It is, so-

Scott Hammond: So what happened after that then?

Terri Vroman Little: So after that, I, um, wasn't quite done with the CCC, so I went ahead and applied to be an energy conservation worker.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: And that, um, was some training, and then you get a green hat, and then I got to do, like, retrofitting of state buildings all over the state-

Scott Hammond: Oh, wow

Terri Vroman Little: … with, you know, insulation and weather stripping.

Scott Hammond: Little different from the trail kings.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Yeah, but it was… Uh, um, we had to go through an academic program, and so that's where I, it started to kinda hit that maybe I really should get an education.

Scott Hammond: Oh, wow.

Terri Vroman Little: So, uh, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Maybe a degree.

Terri Vroman Little: Maybe. I should go to college.

Scott Hammond: Did you go to Humboldt then, or did you go somewhere-

Terri Vroman Little: Well, that's a good story, too.

Terri Vroman Little: So-

Scott Hammond: I'm sorry. Cal Poly.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, I s- I have to call it Humboldt still.

Scott Hammond: I do.

Terri Vroman Little: I might, I might change.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, it's-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. So I, um, I applied at Humboldt, and they, uh, told me that I couldn't go there because, uh, my GPA wasn't high enough, and I said-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … "What's a GPA? I don't know what that is." Because I didn't care in high school.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: I really did not like school.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: It was kind of the old Midwestern, you know, corporal punishment I think was done in my high school at the time.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: But it was just, it wasn't my thing. So anyway, um, they sent me down to CR, and I-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … spent two years there-

Scott Hammond: Oh, good

Terri Vroman Little: … getting my grades up and then, you know, went from a 1.8 to

Terri Vroman Little: a 4.0, and-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … um, then they took me.

Scott Hammond: CR is a great school.

Terri Vroman Little: It was amazing, yeah.

Scott Hammond: College of the Redwoods, located-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … in south of Eureka, California-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … down toward Fortuna here in the handy dandy Humboldt County map, 100% Humboldt County map.

Terri Vroman Little: Ding, ding, ding.

Scott Hammond: Ding, ding. Um, so, so you went to CR. Then what'd you study at Humboldt?

Terri Vroman Little: Then I had thought at CR I was gonna go into environmental studies of some kind, but that was just too, um, heartbreaking and disappointing. It felt like-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … everything was wrong, um-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … and so I shifted over at some point to education.

Scott Hammond: Oh.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, with the, the notion that I could have a bigger impact, um, by working with children and helping them understand the natural world and-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … you know, everything else.

Terri Vroman Little: But-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … um, like, having an impact at that level.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, came up as an ocean major and wildlife and just discovered I was not particularly too bright.

Scott Hammond: And so-

Terri Vroman Little: What?

Scott Hammond: Not too brightAnd wound up as a-

Terri Vroman Little: Sorry, that was not funny

Scott Hammond: … recreation major.

Terri Vroman Little: There you go.

Scott Hammond: Liberal arts, so-

Terri Vroman Little: Okay

Scott Hammond: … with five minors or something, whatever I wanted.

Terri Vroman Little: Ooh.

Scott Hammond: But you know what? Solid education.

Scott Hammond: Felt-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … felt like I got my money's worth, and, um, ready to go right into… Of course, got pregnant, and radio sales. I was in sales for,

Scott Hammond: uh-

Terri Vroman Little: Oh

Scott Hammond: … well, still am, I guess, as a State Farm agent. But yeah, for f- for many years in media, so.

Terri Vroman Little: What years were you at Humboldt?

Scott Hammond: Uh, '78 through '82.

Terri Vroman Little: Okay.

Scott Hammond: I'm 100 years old now this year.

Terri Vroman Little: Ooh. You don't look it.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: You do not.

Scott Hammond: I feel pretty good, actually, for-

Terri Vroman Little: Right on

Scott Hammond: … for 100. It was the sun in Maui that was helpful.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, 'cause that really preserves your skin.

Scott Hammond: It really does. Preserves my soul.

Terri Vroman Little: Ugh.

Terri Vroman Little: Ugh.

Scott Hammond: Anyway, so you graduated and then stayed here?

Terri Vroman Little: So, yeah. Um, and during, like through College of the Redwoods and through my time at Humboldt, I, um, went back to Kings Canyon National Park as a, a federal employee and worked on-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … uh, backcountry trails.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

Terri Vroman Little: It was a really nice balance, because, um, by then I was pretty fit. Um, and so it was… I could keep up with everybody.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: You know, I was small but strong.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, and so I could work all summer, and there was nowhere to spend the money, so it all just went into my bank account.

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.

Terri Vroman Little: And then I would come back in the fall and, uh, take more classes.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So you did that in the summer and then came back and-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, and I had to skip some, initially it was quarters, and then semesters

Terri Vroman Little: just to-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … fit in a full season, because-

Scott Hammond: I remember the quarter system.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: That was a q- great way to go. 67 bucks a quarter, plus books.

Terri Vroman Little: I, yeah, I don't remember the co-

Scott Hammond: It was cheap back in the day

Terri Vroman Little: … Oh, I'm a… Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Well, CR was free when I was there.

Scott Hammond: It is a better deal.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: That's even better.

Terri Vroman Little: But Humboldt, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, so, um, so it took me way longer than four years to finish. Even while I was at CR, I didn't go all the time.

Scott Hammond: Gotcha.

Terri Vroman Little: But it was because I was working.

Scott Hammond: Well, you had a good gig down there-

Terri Vroman Little: I did, yeah

Scott Hammond: … it sounds like. Sounds like fun.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Hard, hard work fun.

Terri Vroman Little: It was. And, um, looking back on it now, because I'm a smaller person, I had to use tools to, like manage the big rocks-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … the rock bars, where other people who were bigger were more likely to just use brute force.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: And, um, that's great, except many of my bigger friends ended up with back problems at a super young age.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: And that was… I don't have that.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: So.

Scott Hammond: You used the tools you had.

Terri Vroman Little: Right.

Scott Hammond: So did you get, uh… You graduated, got married, stayed.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, yeah, not quite in that order. I was, uh, I got pregnant with our, my oldest, who's now 34-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … when I was just, I think I had a semester to go.

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.

Terri Vroman Little: And so she was born, and I needed one, like I had to take six more

Terri Vroman Little: units-

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh

Terri Vroman Little: … after she was born. And so we walked through graduation one weekend-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … and then had our wedding the next weekend.

Terri Vroman Little: So…

Terri Vroman Little: Our-

Scott Hammond: Busy, busy June.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, yeah. So the, you know, family came and got to do all the fun things together.

Scott Hammond: That's cool.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. And that was with my former husband-

Scott Hammond: Gotcha

Terri Vroman Little: … so the dad of my two kids.

Scott Hammond: Gotcha. And so how old are your kids now?

Terri Vroman Little: Um, the older two are 34

Terri Vroman Little: and 29.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And are you a grandma?

Terri Vroman Little: I'm a grandma.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: The 29-year-old has an eight-year-old son who I adore.

Scott Hammond: Aw.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. And they're-

Scott Hammond: Cool. They're here local?

Terri Vroman Little: Those two are, yes.

Scott Hammond: Nice.

Terri Vroman Little: Yes. And then our, our oldest is up in Portland.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, which is accessible. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. It's a day. Yeah, it's a long drive, but yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So then you got into Montessori.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Can I back up, though?

Terri Vroman Little: I have-

Scott Hammond: Oh, go, oh, please, back away

Terri Vroman Little: … Well, no, that, that's actually a better path.

Terri Vroman Little: So, um, while I was doing my teaching credential… So once I had m- my daughter, my oldest, um, I finished up those last few credits-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … and then took a year just to be a mom, and then, um, went back to get my teaching credential. And at that point, um, my daughter was two-ish. Um, and my master teachers, who were at Grant… Uh, not, sorry, not Grant. Um, Alice Birney School. That's where I did my student teaching.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, Michelle, it was Michelle Leftridge at the time, and Mary Scott. Mary Scott's a county school board member.

Scott Hammond: I remember those names from somehow, yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Amazing people.

Scott Hammond: Was Alice Birney the one that's… That's not Jacobs, it's, uh-

Terri Vroman Little: It was next to Jacobs. I mean, Jacobs-

Scott Hammond: It's over there

Terri Vroman Little: … is scraped now, but-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Wow, okay.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. So, um, Michelle, who has a daughter very close in age to my daughter, said, "Oh, you need to send Kelsey to Montessori preschool."

Scott Hammond: Oh.

Terri Vroman Little: And I said, "Well, okay." Look, I didn't, I knew about Montessori, but I didn't really understand it. And so it's having sent her there and seeing what Montessori education-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … was about as a new teacher, um, it just kinda-

Scott Hammond: Tell us about Maria Montessori.

Terri Vroman Little: Ooh.

Scott Hammond: What's, what's it all about?

Terri Vroman Little: Oh my gosh.

Scott Hammond: I, I'm… Some people will know, but m- many of us don't know the de- the

Scott Hammond: deets.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, and it's, it's been fun over the years that, um, people have asked, "Well, what religion is that?" Well, it's not a religion, it's just a person. Um, Maria Montessori was born in Italy at a time when the, the options for women were to stay home and have a baby or possibly be a teacher, and that was, like, as far as you could go in education. And Maria Montessori, um, wanted to be a doctor.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: And s- um, you know, you read different stories, but s- she was very convincing, and I think her mom was quite an

Terri Vroman Little: advocate.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: And there's, you know, word that possibly the Pope intervened, but she-

Scott Hammond: This early 1900s?

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. She was born in, um… Oh, dear. Well, she, she died in 1952. So I think she was born in

Terri Vroman Little: 1859.

Scott Hammond: Okay. Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: Something like that. I should know those dates, but I don't in this moment.

Scott Hammond: So she lived a long life.

Terri Vroman Little: She did, yeah. Very, um, just brilliant life.

Scott Hammond: Hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: So she initially got picked on in medical school. She, thing… You know, it was just a whole different era. Women were not supposed to work on cadavers next to men-

Scott Hammond: Hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … so, you know, the men would get to do that work in the daytime, and she'd have to go downstairs in the dark at night and-

Scott Hammond: Huh

Terri Vroman Little: … do her studies by herself.

Scott Hammond: With, with dead people.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Well, just their bodies.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, just-It's just their shell.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, their earth… Pastor Jim calls that your earth suit.

Terri Vroman Little: There.

Scott Hammond: So.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: So, I mean, that kind of stick-to-it-ness, stick-to-it-iveness-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … uh, um, amazing. So-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … it didn't take too long before people started to understand h- who… like, what she was and how amazing she was, and so the, the picking on her, um, tapered away.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: She actually got to give a speech at graduation.

Scott Hammond: Oh, wow.

Terri Vroman Little: When she was placed, the first place she went was at a, um… In those days, it was called an insane asylum, or some other… It's derogatory now, but just a facility for children with pretty severe developmental disabilities.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Um, because… I, I don't know why because. So she started observing the children because her background was science, and just watching what they were doing-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … and hearing all the, the people saying, "Well, these kids are terrible. They're playing with crumbs on the floor." And she said, "Well, there's nothing there for them to work with except for, like, spilled food."

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: So they had nothing. They had no enrichment at all.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: It was like an asylum.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

Terri Vroman Little: So she got busy and did research and went back for more education, and-

Scott Hammond: Brilliant

Terri Vroman Little: … that's where, that's kinda where her whole approach to teaching and learning started was there.

Scott Hammond: Interesting.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So w- from nothing, yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. But again-

Scott Hammond: I imagine watching-

Terri Vroman Little: … a really brilliant person

Scott Hammond: … watching and learning and going, "Well, I th- maybe there's a…" So what, h- what, what's the premise of Montessori education?

Terri Vroman Little: There's a few tenants that… I mean, there's all kinds of amazing materials that some she developed from

Terri Vroman Little: scratch.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Others, she made good use of the science and materials that were already out in the world. So some of her stuff came from other brilliant people at the time-

Scott Hammond: Hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … especially the math materials. Anyway, um, hands-on learning because especially young children, they… Like, and pe- grown-ups too.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: There's a lot of sensorial information you can get, so really visual and hands-on materials. Um, freedom within limits, which is brilliant. I mean, it works in any

Terri Vroman Little: program-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … where you're free to make choices that you can… You know, if you're using materials correctly-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … you're allowing other people to work.

Scott Hammond: Love it.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, and then if you can't use those correctly, that's where the limits are, come, and if you can't limit yourself, then, you know, I as your educator will step in and help you and set some limits-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … until you're ready to push again.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: So, um, so also, there's three year age cycles in a traditional Montessori classroom, which allows for that kind of span of developmental-

Scott Hammond: Hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … progress.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Because not every child in first grade on day one can do these 10 things.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: You know, some of them did them a year ago.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Some of them, it's coming. So having that, um, choice of materials and a span of materials, um-

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: And then for the teachers, it's pretty great 'cause you only change out one-third of your class every year, and so there's a more

Terri Vroman Little: sustained-

Scott Hammond: That's cool

Terri Vroman Little: … culture in the room. So the older children are helping model for the younger

Terri Vroman Little: ones.

Scott Hammond: What are the three year increments?

Terri Vroman Little: Um, typically it would be, like, in a preschool, it would go through kindergarten.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: So kinda two and a half to three-year-olds all the way through about six.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: And then first, second, third together, um, fourth, fifth, sixth, and then the adolescent program.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, there's not many models of that. Like, even our program can't quite pull that off because ideally there would be a farm, and the kids would go out and work on the farm.

Terri Vroman Little: Like-

Scott Hammond: 'Cause this had a, this has an ag p- uh, component to it then.

Terri Vroman Little: Especially at the adolescent and into high school years-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … 'cause that, that's such a hard time for any kid, whether they've got everything they want, if they're struggling. Like, it's just… Their bodies are changing so much.

Scott Hammond: Oh, my gosh.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. So having them, like, do, um, work that they could… Like, have a farm stand.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Have their hands in the dirt, be outside, use their bodies.

Scott Hammond: Perfect.

Terri Vroman Little: Um-

Scott Hammond: Watch nature do its thing.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: So, um, there's are some amazing models. There's one in Hershey, Ohio, where-

Scott Hammond: Hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … we've sent some teachers for their training.

Scott Hammond: So your job and title is what at the local school?

Terri Vroman Little: Well, that's where it gets tricky. So I, I, um… Right, uh, right now my main title is I'm the s- school founder.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Which doesn't mean I founded it on my own.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: But, um, it was my, my brilliant idea.

Scott Hammond: That's a pretty nice title.

Terri Vroman Little: I like it.

Scott Hammond: I founded podcasting in Eureka.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: No, that's Nick. Sorry. Uh, I founded the Hammond Family Ranch.

Terri Vroman Little: Mm.

Scott Hammond: Um, I like that.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. So, um-

Scott Hammond: So at start, you were part of the start.

Terri Vroman Little: I was, yeah. And I was… So backing up to my kids, my son came along five years later, and he went to the same Montessori preschool, and it was just clear, like, he's a very bright person, as is my older daughter, but he's just wired differently, and it was looking like that traditional education was not gonna be so easy for him. My older child made the leap okay. So I got busy and went back to school, um, and started Montessori

Terri Vroman Little: training-

Scott Hammond: Hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … um, with the, the vision of opening, uh, an elementary program here locally.

Scott Hammond: Back to school meaning Humboldt?

Terri Vroman Little: No, not right away. I went down to San Luis Obispo area-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … ironically, um-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Terri Vroman Little: … because there was a, a, kind of a hybrid program where I could do a lot of the studying in the s- school year time, and then go down for intensive hands-on learning in the summers.

Scott Hammond: Oh.

Terri Vroman Little: So I did that f- through, um, kinda four summers to get both levels that I wanted, the preschool level and-

Scott Hammond: So you got a private school, a private Montessori training center, or was it through SLO, through-

Terri Vroman Little: It's-

Scott Hammond: … Cal Poly?

Terri Vroman Little: … private, and it was kind of… Like, you could get extended ed through, uh, UC Santa Barbara.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, but it was, it's a standalone program-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm. What-

Terri Vroman Little: … supported by a couple of local Montessoris.

Scott Hammond: Love that area. That's such a cool area. Yeah, we're going down soon to Paso or Tuscadero, somewhere anyway.

Terri Vroman Little: Nice.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, Joni's sister has a restaurant in SLO.

Terri Vroman Little: Oh.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: We should talk about that later.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Um.

Scott Hammond: Pizza Republic. Hey, Lisa.

Terri Vroman Little: Hey.

Scott Hammond: Shout out to Lisa.

Terri Vroman Little: Yay.

Scott Hammond: Tim.

Terri Vroman Little: Hello.

Scott Hammond: Um, yeah, so they… What a great area. So you came back then and started this school?

Terri Vroman Little: So it-That would have be- been so easy, but it was-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … really hard to get anything off the ground.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Initially my husband and I thought, "Oh, well, we'll make it a private program," and that just was not, it was just not gonna happen.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: And I'm really glad it didn't.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Because that would have set us up to just have families that could pay to go, get to go, um, and that was not ever really Montessori's model. Like, she started with inner city slum kids.

Scott Hammond: Slum.

Terri Vroman Little: That was her first classroom.

Scott Hammond: Available for everybody. Come one, come all.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: So, um, I approached Eureka City Schools, and at the time-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … Jim Scott was the superintendent.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: And he got it. He understood what-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … what the vision was-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … and being, like, being able to offer that with Eureka City Schools.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: So that's where I started. Had a small, uh, standalone classroom at Grant

Terri Vroman Little: Elementary.

Scott Hammond: That was Montessori specific.

Terri Vroman Little: Yes.

Scott Hammond: That's rad, under the public school system.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, and that lasted four years.

Scott Hammond: Is that done much? Is that… Do they do that much?

Terri Vroman Little: Um, it's becoming more common, but the more likely scenario is what we are now, which is an independent charter school.

Scott Hammond: So you're funded through the state, but as a separate-

Terri Vroman Little: Yes

Scott Hammond: … entity.

Terri Vroman Little: So, um, we're under the umbrella of Arcata School District-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … because of where our first site ended up being.

Scott Hammond: So do you have access to resources through… Can kids play sports for, for instance, if they wanted to?

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. We, um, we do compete in, with other schools in sports.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Our… And, like, there's no way our high school students are ever gonna be able to compete against-

Scott Hammond: Well, no

Terri Vroman Little: … like, a, you know, a big IP-

Scott Hammond: Eureka High

Terri Vroman Little: … yeah, Eureka. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: No.

Terri Vroman Little: But, um, what we did for the first time ever, which was pretty amazing, shout out to College of the Redwoods, um, we, uh, fielded a basketball team, and there's a whole program for-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … small school basketball teams.

Scott Hammond: All right.

Terri Vroman Little: And so, um, yeah, they got to play basketball-

Scott Hammond: Got in the league. Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … against other little schools. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: That's cool.

Terri Vroman Little: They came in fourth out of six at the tournament.

Scott Hammond: Hey, come on.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Hey, what, they're rocking it.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, and there were kids that were out there that had never played basketball

Terri Vroman Little: before-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … along with some really skilled kids who had kind of lost steam in the whole super competitive piece.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: So it's really, really magical to watch them play.

Scott Hammond: That's so… So as the founder, do you come and teach? Do you show up and-

Terri Vroman Little: So I had been the first through third grade classroom teacher. That was my sweet spot.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: And I had done that with Grant Elementary for four years, and then, um, it was a declining enrollment in the district-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … and Jim Scott had retired, and the new forces there just didn't really appreciate or what- uh, whatever. Um, so I was at a board meeting saying, "Are we gonna get to be here next year? 'Cause if not-"

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: "… like, I need to know now."

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: And so the board just sat silently, which was the kindest thing they could have done

Terri Vroman Little: really.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: And so I walked out of that meeting thinking, "It's done."

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: And then a bunch of parents followed and said, "Okay, well, what do we do now?"

Scott Hammond: Huh.

Terri Vroman Little: So I thought, "Oh, we're not done. We're just moving on."

Scott Hammond: We're just moving, just transitioning.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Yeah, so it's kind of a long, drawn-out story, but we, um, Mattole Valley Charter School-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … took us under their wing, and we were able to get a school site in Cooper Gulch straight across from where Mistwood Montessori is.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: It's a city-owned building.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: It was amazing for a small program that we were at the time.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: So we had three years there.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

Terri Vroman Little: Loved it.

Scott Hammond: Is that over by the Frisbee golf course or whatever?

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Hammond: It's right over here.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, sorry.

Terri Vroman Little: Yes. Yeah, I can see it.

Scott Hammond: It's right there.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Um, okay.

Terri Vroman Little: So-

Scott Hammond: Cool. So what's, um, what's cool about Montessori? What have, what have you seen the fruit of the kids that come through it?

Terri Vroman Little: Well, um, well, one thing I have to say is that Montessori, the approach to Montessori teaching and, and learning, so the, the freedom within limits.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Follow the child, which means you're not gonna follow them around with, like, a little helicopter or snowplow, but you're observing, taking note of what the children are interested in, and then supporting what they

Terri Vroman Little: wanna learn-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … in that moment with the materials on hand.

Terri Vroman Little: Um-

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. So, but other, like, really subtle things are supporting… There's a lot of psychology about education that Mo- Montessori understood-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … so far back.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, so just the phrasing of what you do, not making it, "Oh, I'm so proud of you." Like, "Oh, my gosh. Look how hard you worked on that."

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Like, those basic-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … things to empower the children.

Scott Hammond: I love it.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. So we homeschooled most of our nine kids.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Not all of them. Joni finally fired the last two, threw in the towel and said, "Get, get out of here."

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. That's a lot of kids.

Scott Hammond: "Go, go to a charter school." Actually, Worthington right around the corner.

Terri Vroman Little: Aw.

Scott Hammond: Um, and they did fine. They got through. The, the, but the net is, uh, she learned early on the whole un- unlearning model, which is feed them what they love, man.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Let them do what they like within re- within parameters.

Terri Vroman Little: Right. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: You know? Sh- Kalia was very artsy and hands-on and kinetic and creative, and, and Jesse, we would just go get him a big box of books at McKinleyville

Scott Hammond: Library.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: I mean, the big ones. And Joy loved to see him coming. It… Sh- the librarian, she was, she was amazing, and she'd go, "Yeah. Well, he could go over the limit. That's fine. Take two boxes today." And, uh, so just feeding the, those gifts, and funny, we don't do that as much in the old model.

Terri Vroman Little: No.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Well, the old model was a, like, factory. I, I'm not, I can't say for sure, but I think my elementary classroom desks were bolted to the floor in straight rows because a lot of that, like that whole, like, industrial approach to education-

Scott Hammond: Michigan.

Terri Vroman Little: Well, that was actually Indiana. We moved to Indiana for a while.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: Um-

Scott Hammond: Bolted to the floor.

Terri Vroman Little: Well, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: 'Cause it, it was kinda based on the factory model, and-

Scott Hammond: Sure

Terri Vroman Little: … factories are all, you know, like pinned down, lined up.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Everybody does the same thing, um, which can work really well for a lot of kids, but not every kid.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

Terri Vroman Little: So.

Scott Hammond: Some of us got through it, and I-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … I came to Humboldt. It was very creative. We had, um, a c- program called Cluster, which was no tests, no grades, show up, get 16 units in the quarter system, which was beautiful.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Um, and it was all interdisciplinary, and you did have to show up. You did have to journal. You did have to do your darn work and be present. But the no grade thing was really kinda hard on folks. People were so used to the factory.

Terri Vroman Little: Yep.Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and getting there. You check the, the boxes, and you get through, and it's like

Scott Hammond: this was a, a really nicely different program which was really well, well-rounded. It made me hunger to learn things.

Terri Vroman Little: Yay.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Like, like recreation administration.

Terri Vroman Little: Great.

Scott Hammond: Kids go, "You majored in recess?" I go, "Kinda."

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Don't mess with me.

Terri Vroman Little: Come on outside, man.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, come on outside. Let's go for a hike.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So no, that's wonderful. So I, um, I appreciate that 'cause, you know, coming from that homeschool background, there's such a big homeschool and charter school community-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … here.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: That's, you know, that's- that stuff's so important. So let- let's shift over to your, uh, your s- well, I wanna ask about COVID and what that did to the school and-

Terri Vroman Little: Okay

Scott Hammond: … and kids and kinda, and then transition to your running and the Humboldt Bay Marathon and stuff.

Terri Vroman Little: Great. Yeah. Okay, so there's a couple pieces I still have to fill in.

Terri Vroman Little: Um-

Scott Hammond: Oh, please.

Terri Vroman Little: So I, when my son was born, my, his dad, the dad of my two older children, and I split up actually before, um, Huxley was even born, so that was a-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … really tough time-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … for all of us.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, so I ended up needing to work very part-time for a reasonable amount of mon- amount of money, and so, um, a job came open to teach inside the Humboldt County Jail.

Scott Hammond: Oh, wonderful.

Terri Vroman Little: And that's what I did. I call it my seven years hard time.

Scott Hammond: Ah.

Terri Vroman Little: Uh, 'cause it was hard. It was, um-

Scott Hammond: Men, women, both?

Terri Vroman Little: Yes.

Scott Hammond: Ah.

Terri Vroman Little: All, all categories of jumpsuits, so like-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … violent murderers, you know, sexual predators, everybody who was cleared to be educated, um-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … I worked with all of them.

Scott Hammond: So mostly classroom setting, or?

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Yeah, and it was early enough where it was still the old jail model. The new jail was being built while I was teaching there-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … so I got to kinda transition over.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, but my point was that while I was doing some of my Montessori education while I was still teaching in the jail-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … and, um, was able to implement some of those-

Scott Hammond: They were getting some Montessori

Terri Vroman Little: … approaches, yeah, without ever saying that to anyone.

Scott Hammond: Right. Right.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Yeah, and that, um, it was heartbreaking and also really inspiring to

Terri Vroman Little: see people pull it together, um, and then devastating because many people were still in the addiction cycle

Terri Vroman Little: and-

Scott Hammond: Sure

Terri Vroman Little: … just, you know, I'd see repeats come in and really young people who did really horrendous, um-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … things. Um, and I still, like, that's been… I haven't worked there in 20 years.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: But every once in a while, somebody will recognize me out in the community-

Scott Hammond: Oh, that's cool

Terri Vroman Little: … and say, "Oh, I got my GED when I was working with you," and-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, jail-

Terri Vroman Little: That's amazing. Yeah

Scott Hammond: … jails a… Yeah, I have friends that done jail ministry and

Scott Hammond: it's, uh, it's a mix. Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Tough.

Terri Vroman Little: So-

Scott Hammond: So what did COVID do to education and kids?

Terri Vroman Little: Oh, my goodness. Well, by the time COVID came, like, I had already been out of the classroom for a while-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … before COVID. So I, like, we were, our family was living through it. I was, you know, seeing how the school was doing and helping.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, we, it was rough.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: It was super rough. My, our youngest at home, who's now almost 18, she was in adolescence, and then it… So any child, though, going from a hands-on learning environment or whatever-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … even in traditional education, from that to being home-

Scott Hammond: Oh, boy

Terri Vroman Little: … and facing a screen.

Scott Hammond: Ugh.

Terri Vroman Little: You know, h- asking that of children was a lot, and then asking that of families-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … was super hard, too.

Scott Hammond: Let's Zoom live for the rest of-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Yeah

Scott Hammond: … three years. Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: So sh- I don't think she'll be mad, but our, we got a phone call from our, our daughter, whose parent, or her teacher was like, "I, I don't know if she's really paying attention 'cause she's at the screen but kinda looking sideways and smiling." And we busted her. She was just watching little cute videos on the side-

Scott Hammond: Sure

Terri Vroman Little: … while she was supposed to be paying attention in class.

Scott Hammond: Like all the kids were.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Like I wa- like I still do.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Right?

Scott Hammond: Don't tell anybody. I'm in Zoom class.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. So it'll, it'll be interesting to see how that pans out over time.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: But I think the kinda cool thing is that nobody got out unscathed. Like, everybody's education got jammed up, so there's

Terri Vroman Little: this whole-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … generation of students who-

Scott Hammond: Right

Terri Vroman Little: … have had to weather that and-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … and make the best.

Scott Hammond: Went and got our daughter from Chico State, Michaela, and brought her home from the dorms, and she stayed there and graduated two months later from home.

Terri Vroman Little: Hey.

Scott Hammond: Never went back to Chico.

Terri Vroman Little: Wow.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, just all Zoom and distance learning. So yeah. I, I think there's… It's a r- I think it's just kinda coming out now what, how people have survived

Scott Hammond: and-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … thrived and not, and-

Terri Vroman Little: Mm. I work with really young children now, so my job title, it's through, um, Humboldt First Five-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … and so I'm a, a zero to five-year-old playgroup leader.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: And so it's children that are zero to five. They come in with some kind of adult, so either a parent-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … grandparent, um, babysitter.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, and those, like the children who are now turning four, five, six, they were super

Terri Vroman Little: isolated in-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … that developmental phase.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: So a lot of them, the parents have been saying, "Yeah, they just, they never had the chance to learn how to share when they were tiny."

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: So now that's a thing that, um, you know, it's workable, but it's-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … a s- a thing that was skipped maybe.

Scott Hammond: You have to relearn or unlearn some things.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, I think, uh, our 19-year-old, her, he, he suffered greatly. Came through with a really good guitar skill- … 'cause he, he was-

Terri Vroman Little: There you go

Scott Hammond: … on YouTube all the time, and-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and he could bench 450 pounds, which is, in America-

Terri Vroman Little: Oh

Scott Hammond: … a lot of weight.

Terri Vroman Little: It is

Scott Hammond: … in the world. It's NF- it's more than NFL.

Terri Vroman Little: That's more than two people.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Oh, it's, it's, it's four or five plates and both… It's, he's hardcore.

Terri Vroman Little: Wow.

Scott Hammond: And ate a lot of protein.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And, um, but socially, I, I think, um-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. It's tough

Scott Hammond: … he, he is ca- he is catching up. Like you said, the kids are p- we're resilient.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: You implied it. You didn't say it, but-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and then we can relearn and unlearn and, and go forward.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And but yeah, kind of a tough setback.

Terri Vroman Little: It was at all.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And even for adults, I, lot- lots of adult friends are, right now are, I think-I'm just seeing some, some hangover PTSD, anxiety, depression-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … abuse of whatever-

Terri Vroman Little: Right

Scott Hammond: … like addiction cycles.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And it's, um, I don't know that, that many people are immune from all of that, so,

Scott Hammond: um.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, I agree.

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: It doesn't matter what your background is.

Scott Hammond: All that, the, the, and the, an environment of, of, of separation and-

Terri Vroman Little: Ugh

Scott Hammond: … political dissension and, and insanity.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Other than that, we're doing great.

Scott Hammond: So, uh.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Well, and it's, um, and you never know who is going to pull through better than you think, and those people-

Scott Hammond: Right

Terri Vroman Little: … that you think are gonna be fine-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … when really they're not.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: I, it's interesting you'd say that, 'cause I, I found that in, um, in a church setting, the people that I thought were really cool, totally like great people, they're, as soon as there's crisis, they're out of here, man.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: They're ch- they check out, and it's like, "I love you, but I'm gone." And then the people that I thought were kinda, uh, um, you know, just

Scott Hammond: not negative, just ambivalent, uh, turned out to be the amazing people during a crisis.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Or a down cycle or what, a problem or a, a tri- a, you know, trouble. And it's, it's funny how that works. The people that came and saw me after my hip surgery were not-

Terri Vroman Little: Mm

Scott Hammond: … the people that I thought were gonna come by.

Terri Vroman Little: There.

Scott Hammond: To say hi.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: To bring a sandwich, to bring some strawberries, to, you know, whatever.

Terri Vroman Little: Make you walk.

Scott Hammond: To make you walk.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: To inspire you to get off your couch-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and start walking on those hips. So speaking of walking-

Terri Vroman Little: Yes, okay

Scott Hammond: … uh, so you're, you're the, are you the founder of the Humboldt Bay Marathon?

Terri Vroman Little: Um, Rich Baker and I w- were the original directors.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: So co-founder is what I like to say-

Scott Hammond: Okay

Terri Vroman Little: … or co-director.

Scott Hammond: Who's Rich?

Terri Vroman Little: Rich Baker is, um, he's a local legend

Terri Vroman Little: himself.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: So his, I met him because his two younger daughters came to our school.

Scott Hammond: Oh, okay.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, and they had gone through the Montessori preschool as well.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, and he was kind of an off-and-on runner, but had just decided somewhere in there to, to get busy running.

Scott Hammond: Commit?

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. And our daughters were also singing together. I guess that's how we got to spend more time while they were at chorus practice.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: We were chatting it up. And um, I just started talking about how amazing it would be if we could have a marathon that goes all the way around Humboldt Bay.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Like that just, ugh.

Scott Hammond: Oh, we got, we have the bay right here. That's so amazing.

Terri Vroman Little: Well, no, we don't. We got a piece. Oh, we do. Sorry.

Scott Hammond: If we're in Arcata… Is that where it starts, on the plaza, or-

Terri Vroman Little: Um, it, it starts in Eureka.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: And-

Scott Hammond: And do you go all the way around the bay?

Terri Vroman Little: The first couple years it did.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, yeah, all the way around, and grabbed, um, some mileage out in the Arcata

Terri Vroman Little: bottoms.

Scott Hammond: That's right. So you come up and then-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, mm-hmm

Scott Hammond: … up around Manila, Samoa.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: And over the bridges.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, are we allowed to say cuss words in here?

Scott Hammond: Sure.

Terri Vroman Little: Okay. People, um, we, we're not using those bridges the last few years, but people call them the damn bridges.

Scott Hammond: Ah.

Terri Vroman Little: Because they come in the last several miles, which-

Scott Hammond: Ah

Terri Vroman Little: … for a marathon is grim timing to have any kind of a hill.

Scott Hammond: And they're little hills, yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Those damn bridges.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: I thought you were really gonna cuss.

Terri Vroman Little: So they're coming back.

Scott Hammond: I was waiting for something.

Terri Vroman Little: We are gonna come back. Yeah, I'm sure people have-

Scott Hammond: Some sailor talk

Terri Vroman Little: … all kinds of words, but, uh-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … so,

Terri Vroman Little: uh-

Scott Hammond: So that was the end of the race.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, yeah. And I had trained running around Humboldt Bay a few times-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … with, um, some, like my friend, uh, Jesse Hunt, and my friend Suzy Seaman,

Terri Vroman Little: uh, that we had trained up to run, um, Santa Rosa Marathon together.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, so that, like we had done some of our long runs around the bay, and that was kinda what got me thinking about it some years before.

Terri Vroman Little: Um-

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. So Rich Baker said, "Yes, let's do it." And so

Terri Vroman Little: we-

Scott Hammond: Here it is

Terri Vroman Little: … we worked together pretty tightly for the first couple years.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, so the, the initial year was

Terri Vroman Little: 2015.

Scott Hammond: Hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, so we're on, this will be our ninth running this coming year.

Scott Hammond: Wow, already.

Terri Vroman Little: We skipped a year due to COVID.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: So it's ca- it's not really an annual. We can't ever quite claim that. We just call it the whatever running.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: So this will be the ninth.

Scott Hammond: And what's the date this year?

Terri Vroman Little: So it's Sunday, August 11. It's always the second Sunday in

Terri Vroman Little: August.

Scott Hammond: Okay. August 11th.

Terri Vroman Little: Yep. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: We're in town. I think Joni's s- signing up, going for it.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. She's run it quite a few-

Scott Hammond: She got green-lighted yesterday from the doctor.

Terri Vroman Little: Yay.

Scott Hammond: So she's-

Terri Vroman Little: Good

Scott Hammond: … she's going for it.

Terri Vroman Little: Remember how Grasshopper Peak might be in her.

Scott Hammond: Could be, yeah. Actually, yeah. Eh, we're going to her sister's, so we're gonna-

Terri Vroman Little: Okay.

Scott Hammond: There's, it's, it's a, it's a kerfuffle.

Terri Vroman Little: So I have to tell you-

Scott Hammond: That's like a, that's like a cuss word

Terri Vroman Little: … a few, few more things about the marathon.

Scott Hammond: Please.

Terri Vroman Little: 'Cause, um-

Scott Hammond: Absolutely

Terri Vroman Little: … there had been a m- a marathon around Humboldt Bay back in the mid-'70s. I've got some really cryptic paperwork about that.

Scott Hammond: Ah.

Terri Vroman Little: And I think it went for th- two or three years. Think registration was $5. There was no T-shirt involved. The permitting was zero, so-

Scott Hammond: Oh, they just ran it.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Who did that?

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Like the jogging shop and-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, I almost… Oh, I wish I had looked that back up, um, 'cause I can't hold that kind of information.

Scott Hammond: 'Cause that was a strong running community then. I mean, they would have-

Terri Vroman Little: Yes

Scott Hammond: … hardcore Humboldt people.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Yeah, and there's still, like people, there's hardcore runners here

Terri Vroman Little: now.

Scott Hammond: Oh, sure.

Terri Vroman Little: They've maybe diversified a little, a lot more trail runners.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Anyway, so we were not the originators of it and-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … but we've, um, we've kept it going with a lot of support from, uh, local people, local businesses, um, volunteers. Um, and last year we helped a man qualify for the Olympic

Terri Vroman Little: trials.

Scott Hammond: Whoa.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: He q- he set a new course record that's gonna be really tricky to beat unless somebody else is trying-

Scott Hammond: Who was it?

Terri Vroman Little: … to qualify. His name is Mason Searles, Searle, from, uh, Colorado, and he brought a friend with him who'd already qualified and was just gonna try to re-qualify-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … or run a… Yeah, it was amazing. So he ran, um,

Terri Vroman Little: 2:17:46.

Scott Hammond: That's really fast.

Terri Vroman Little: It's smoking, yeah.

Scott Hammond: That's super fast.

Terri Vroman Little: So, um, part of why they picked us is that we're sea level.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: It's a very flat course. It's a double out and back right now-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … for this year, and so there's a lot of great things about that. You know the course.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: You know the turns.

Terri Vroman Little: Um-

Scott Hammond: Except for those damn bridges.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Well, those are not part of it right now.

Scott Hammond: Oh, they're not?

Terri Vroman Little: For now. Okay, so-That l- going around the bay was really, really expensive and the w- we couldn't charge enough to really make up for that.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: So eventually we had to back away from that and kind of regroup.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, once those final four miles along, um, Highway 101 are put in as trail-

Scott Hammond: Oh, that's gonna be great.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: So all indications are that by next year-

Scott Hammond: That'll be cool

Terri Vroman Little: … uh, by 2025, our 10th running, we can, um, make it, uh, sustainable and financially viable to go back around the bay, 'cause

Terri Vroman Little: that's-

Scott Hammond: Perfect

Terri Vroman Little: … that's amazing. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So where does it… Where's… So what's this year's route?

Terri Vroman Little: So the start and finish is at the Madaket Plaza, so the foot

Terri Vroman Little: of C Street.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: And then the marathon and the half do the same thing, although the marathon gets to do the half twice. So they go up the waterfront trail all the way up to the Tidstreet. They do a little loop all the way down.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, and then come back to, uh-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Terri Vroman Little: … the foot of C Street. So-

Scott Hammond: Do they go all the way down to Elk River and back?

Terri Vroman Little: W- um-

Scott Hammond: Along that trail

Terri Vroman Little: … we haven't because that just got added w- after we certified our course a couple years ago.

Scott Hammond: Oh.

Terri Vroman Little: And there's some time and expense to recertify.

Scott Hammond: Oh, okay.

Terri Vroman Little: So we're looking at that for this year, whether we can grab that, 'cause that's, that's gorgeous down there.

Scott Hammond: Oh, yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: And really flat.

Scott Hammond: And really, really flat.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. And-

Scott Hammond: And newly paved.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: And there's a nice turnaround where we could have an aid station down there.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: So, um, uh, Marlene Allen is the person to get your course certified. So we're… We've got ideas in the hopper.

Scott Hammond: That's a big thing. The certification's a big deal, right?

Terri Vroman Little: It is, yeah. That's what… So it's with the USATF.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, and don't ask me to explain what that is right now.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: So… But that's what makes you a Boston qualifying race is-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … if you get certified, and then to qualify people for the Olympics-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … you also have to get sanctioned, which requires some more things and a little

Terri Vroman Little: more money.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: That's really cool.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So how do we, uh… L- let's do the shout-out. How do we, uh, enroll in the race if we wanted to?

Terri Vroman Little: Uh, you could go to-

Scott Hammond: Right now

Terri Vroman Little: … HumboldtBayMarathon.com and, uh, find the link to the web pa- or the, um, registration there.

Scott Hammond: Oh.

Terri Vroman Little: It's through Race Roster, which a lot of races use.

Scott Hammond: Race Roster.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Only runners would kinda know that.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Well, probably.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Many.

Terri Vroman Little: So, um, I have to back up though and explain a little, another detail about,

Terri Vroman Little: um-

Scott Hammond: Sure

Terri Vroman Little: … the race. So,

Terri Vroman Little: um, the reason I'm not teaching in the classroom anymore is that I was, uh, running with these three, or two friends-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … that we had actually… We did the Santa Rosa Marathon. All three of us qualified-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … for the Boston Marathon at that race.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, that was 2011.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: And I didn't realize how phenomenal that was, that how many people can't ever get there.

Scott Hammond: It's a big thing.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. So I have to brag, I qualified with, uh, 15 minutes to

Terri Vroman Little: spare.

Scott Hammond: Whoa.

Terri Vroman Little: I know.

Scott Hammond: Did you-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, I look back and that's… Yeah

Scott Hammond: … did you go to race Boston then?

Terri Vroman Little: I… We did, yeah. So Suzy, um, decided to not go to Boston. Her children were younger than Jesse's and mine, and she just decided that wasn't, wasn't gonna be a thing for her that year. So Jesse and I went and ran the 2012 Boston Marathon.

Scott Hammond: Oh, cool.

Terri Vroman Little: No, it was hot. It was painfully hot.

Scott Hammond: Really? Really?

Terri Vroman Little: They were saying, "If you don't start the race, you can just come back next year, and don't… Like, don't… You don't have to re-qualify."

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: It was 79 in the shade at the start.

Scott Hammond: Oh, no. Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: For Humboldt people, that's grim.

Scott Hammond: Early.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: You're dying, yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. So we just regrouped and just decided we're gonna run it and we're gonna finish without needing help at the end.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: So we just had a great time, got lots of high fives, took treats from kids on the sides.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, it was amazing.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: And then soon after that, we were out, I guess it was that September. So I'd just turned 50 in early September of

Terri Vroman Little: 2012.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: And, uh, we were out running one morning, and, um, the, uh… We were hit intentionally by-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … I just k- kind of vacillate between sociopath and psychopath.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: But it was, it was a really intentional thing.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, and, uh, Suzy was killed at the scene, as was Jesse's dog.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: And Jesse and I were just grimly injured.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: Um,

Terri Vroman Little: and so that was 2012. Um, the community stepped in so many ways.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: There are things I'm sure that I still don't know today, but the running community, the school communities-

Scott Hammond: Yeah, I remember

Terri Vroman Little: … people who didn't know us, the Bay Area. So that, um, that was really heartwarming.

Terri Vroman Little: Um-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … and I, I didn't know much to begin with, 'cause along with everything else-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … I had a brain injury. So that's kind of-

Scott Hammond: So for the record, this guy committed crimes up, uh, in the mountains and

Scott Hammond: that, and-

Terri Vroman Little: He did

Scott Hammond: … in the reservation, right?

Terri Vroman Little: He had already murdered somebody else up in Hoopa.

Scott Hammond: And he came back down, and he-

Terri Vroman Little: Took a car, yeah

Scott Hammond: … and he, he, he turned around and came after everybody, right? Is that kind of how it-

Terri Vroman Little: That's what was… Yeah, we don't remember.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, but he… Like, from all the evidence, he drove past us, turned around and came back and drove through the back

Terri Vroman Little: of us.

Scott Hammond: Just doubling back, wow.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. And then turned around again to go wherever he was planning to go and get rid of the car.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, yeah.

Scott Hammond: But somebody saw it and came to the rescue.

Terri Vroman Little: Somebody. There was a, a postal worker who, um, was on her way to work, who lived out on Ol- Older Arcata Road-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … and saw the vehicle turning around but didn't think anything of it, thought it was a farmer, 'cause it was early in the morning. It was still dark. Um-

Scott Hammond: Yeah, you guys are running early.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah, with all the right stuff. We had the headlights, the reflecty stuff.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

Terri Vroman Little: Even the dog had a little light-up collar. Um, on the correct side of the road, on the shoulder.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: So, but she thought it was just a farm vehicle out early-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … and didn't think a thing of it, so just came along and then saw-

Scott Hammond: Goodness

Terri Vroman Little: … the car go around a bunch of our debris in the road. And so she was gonna go along and around too, and looked over and realized, "That's, that's a person."

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: So she stopped her car, parked it across the road to make sure, um, the person, that, that was Jesse, was safe.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, called for help, and then the next person on the scene was an Arcata police officer on his way to work.

Scott Hammond: Wow. Whoa.

Terri Vroman Little: What are the odds?

Scott Hammond: What are the cha- Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: And then soon after that, a, um, CHP investigator coming home from the gym.So there was just, help came-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … quickly, which was good.

Scott Hammond: And he was arrested that day, right?

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. They found the vehicle later and just was kind of-

Scott Hammond: Huh.

Terri Vroman Little: That's a… Yeah, that, I don't need to tell all that story.

Terri Vroman Little: But yes-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … he was arrested later. Um-

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: And it, there's no gift about it, but it took a long time for the trial to come about, and with that time I was able to, like, recover a lot of what I could get back-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … and kind of think things through and be able to go to the trial with, um, a clearer head than if it had happened right away.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: So

Terri Vroman Little: yeah.

Scott Hammond: What a thing to go through, ordeal.

Terri Vroman Little: It is.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: I would, um… Gosh, forgiveness, all that stuff that-

Terri Vroman Little: Ugh

Scott Hammond: … how do you, how do you move through all that? I guess you have.

Terri Vroman Little: Well, no.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: I don't think I ever will. I don't think anyone can.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: But there's, um-

Scott Hammond: To lose somebody, yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … there's l- a lot. Like, I went about wanting to, like, own all the information, which is not what everybody needs, but I had to look at all the files, look at all the pictures.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: I needed to just own the story.

Terri Vroman Little: I-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Terri Vroman Little: … had to ask my husband

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … many times, like, "Okay, so what did I do in the emergency room? I don't remember." Like, ugh.

Terri Vroman Little: So-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … um, so I, that was my approach to recovery. Not that I was thinking, "Oh, I should do this," that's just what I did.

Scott Hammond: The process.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So Jesse doing okay?

Terri Vroman Little: She has recovered, uh, a lot too.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, we, neither one of us could get everything back, and, um-

Scott Hammond: Sure

Terri Vroman Little: … that's her story to tell.

Scott Hammond: Is she running?

Terri Vroman Little: She is, yeah.

Scott Hammond: She could.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Um, yeah, we actually did a race together with another friend who could've easily been with us that morning and just-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … wasn't.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: She's a, um, professor down at Sac State.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: So we went and did a race over in Redding, a, a relay, and we took first place in our age group.

Scott Hammond: Nice.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yay.

Terri Vroman Little: So yeah, we're back running. Um, we kind of… Look, we don't run together very much anymore.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: One thing, Jesse's younger, and she got a lot of her speed back.

Scott Hammond: Ah.

Terri Vroman Little: I'm older, and you know, I'm speedy enough. But anyway, we just kinda, you know, regrouped and pointed ourselves in the direction that made-

Scott Hammond: Joanie's working on her speed. Hi, hon

Terri Vroman Little: … sense. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: She's-

Terri Vroman Little: Go Joanie.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Go Joanie.

Scott Hammond: She's get it back.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. So just to wrap that in, so, um, s- th- um, having a friend be killed is, can't really be a reason to put a

Terri Vroman Little: race on.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Terri Vroman Little: So it wasn't, but yet also it was a way, like, putting Humboldt Bay Marathon together was a way to honor Suzy's memory-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … and everything about running and everybody else who cared about running

Terri Vroman Little: and what-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … happened. And so the first couple years when it went around the bay, it went out Old Arcata Road, and we didn't tell people, but our local friends knew that the course went right past the hit-and-run site.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: And some of our really close friends ran the aid station right there-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … um, just as a silent, not silent, but you know.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: An honoring, and we still go out there every year and redecorate the, the little memorial plaque that's there.

Scott Hammond: That's wonderful.

Terri Vroman Little: You wouldn't know it was there unless you stopped to look at it anyway.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: So, um, yeah, so now there's this, a heart that somebody at Suzy's children's school had drawn, and it's a-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … a heart shape that has Suzy's initials in it.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, and that has been woven into every piece of marathon gear that we do.

Scott Hammond: Oh, that's cool.

Terri Vroman Little: It's in the artwork. It's, like, there's-

Scott Hammond: Sarah, Sarah's designed it in the artwork too?

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Is she doing the artwork this year?

Terri Vroman Little: Yes. Oh, she'll do it until she says no, 'cause I'm never gonna-

Scott Hammond: Ah.

Terri Vroman Little: I'm never gonna not have Sarah.

Scott Hammond: Sarah Star, shout out to the artist.

Terri Vroman Little: Yay, love you. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, no, she's… They're, they've become our good friends, her and Peter just-

Terri Vroman Little: I've heard, yeah

Scott Hammond: … they're just special to us and-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So hey, that, that part of our show where I pull out the bell.

Terri Vroman Little: Okay.

Scott Hammond: And I ring the bell into the mic. That should be crazy.

Terri Vroman Little: There we go.

Scott Hammond: I've never done this.

Terri Vroman Little: Ooh.

Scott Hammond: Ooh, dude, that's loud.

Terri Vroman Little: Resonating.

Scott Hammond: So this is the quiz where you might earn Dick Taylor.

Scott Hammond: Um-

Terri Vroman Little: That bag is empty, man.

Scott Hammond: Well, you don't know that. It could have s- it could be full.

Terri Vroman Little: Okay.

Scott Hammond: There's a lighter. There's a shot glass over there. Oh, those belong to Nick. Uh, so-

Terri Vroman Little: Okay

Scott Hammond: … q- q- here's the quiz. Ready?

Terri Vroman Little: Okay.

Scott Hammond: Favorite burger in Humboldt?

Scott Hammond: Go.

Terri Vroman Little: Ooh. Oh, no. We were in Chico and had such a good, good burger recently. I can't think of, um, where it is. Oh, no. Is it always the burger question?

Scott Hammond: It, not, not always.

Terri Vroman Little: Can we loop back to that?

Scott Hammond: We'll come back.

Terri Vroman Little: I get kind of excited under pressure.

Scott Hammond: Question number two.

Terri Vroman Little: Okay.

Scott Hammond: Favorite coffee place?

Terri Vroman Little: Oh, Old Town Coffee & Chocolates.

Scott Hammond: Okay, good. Number three, favorite chocolate?

Terri Vroman Little: Dick Taylor Madagascar.

Scott Hammond: Oh, wow, that's fine.

Terri Vroman Little: Ironic because my husband and I honeymooned in Belize, and we like that just fine, but Madagascar, that's the winner, Dick Taylor.

Scott Hammond: It's kinda creamier. It's good. I like that one, and we just finished a Madagascar

Scott Hammond: bar. Uh, what's your favorite running trail?

Terri Vroman Little: My favorite is the McKay Community Forest-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … all the way out to the end and back.

Terri Vroman Little: Um-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Terri Vroman Little: … it's about, I don't know, about 11 miles round trip.

Scott Hammond: That's a good run.

Terri Vroman Little: It's not too hilly, which is what I like.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: Ding.

Scott Hammond: You can go anywhere you want for dinner.

Terri Vroman Little: Mm-hmm.

Scott Hammond: Where do you go?

Terri Vroman Little: Uh, Brick & Fire.

Scott Hammond: Brick & Fire? Ooh, good choice.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And last question.

Terri Vroman Little: It's the burger.

Scott Hammond: Your favorite beach in Humboldt County?

Terri Vroman Little: Oh, okay. It's, I think it's called College Cove.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: It's on the way out to Elk Head.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: You drop down in there.

Scott Hammond: It's College Cove, yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, 'cause it's, uh… We take our dogs there early in the morning once in a while when nobody's there.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, I've been, never been down. I've, I worked in, as a rec leader in Trinidad, but we never-

Terri Vroman Little: Oh.

Scott Hammond: I gotta go.

Terri Vroman Little: Okay.

Scott Hammond: Was a nude beach, right? It's clothing optional. Sorry, not nude.

Terri Vroman Little: Um-

Scott Hammond: Back in the day

Terri Vroman Little: … yeah, I guess so.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: We're never there when it's warm enough to sun.

Scott Hammond: No, and usually the people that go nude at nude beaches just shouldn't.

Terri Vroman Little: I think anyone can go, man, if you wanna see it.

Scott Hammond: They can. If you wanna go nude, go for it.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: But you probably… Yeah, some people.

Scott Hammond: Anyway.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Um-

Terri Vroman Little: Okay, well, I have to tell you why that's my favorite beach. It's because my husband and I got married on Elk Head-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Terri Vroman Little: … 25-plus years ago.

Scott Hammond: Was it windy?

Terri Vroman Little: Not too bad. We-

Scott Hammond: 'Cause it can really blow there

Terri Vroman Little: … lucked out. Yeah, it was early October, which is kind of a sweet spot for

Terri Vroman Little: weather here

Scott Hammond: Like all the way out at the end where that-

Terri Vroman Little: At the edge

Scott Hammond: … where that archway thing is?

Terri Vroman Little: Um, down and then on the big flat area.

Scott Hammond: Oh, wow. Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: That's a, that's a ways to go out to-

Terri Vroman Little: It is. Yeah. We f- kind of forgot to tell people it was a bit of a walk.

Scott Hammond: It's a little bit of a

Terri Vroman Little: Folks in heels were not too happy.

Scott Hammond: It's, it's-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: It can be muddy-

Terri Vroman Little: Mm-hmm

Scott Hammond: … in the winter a little too. That's funny. Well, cool. So my question for you-

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … it, and I, I save this for last for someone, is who are you and what do you want? That was Joni's runner father, Tom's, favorite questions.

Scott Hammond: He was-

Terri Vroman Little: Nice. Yeah

Scott Hammond: … a recovery guy, and had all these pithy sayings that were really kind of fun.

Terri Vroman Little: Hmm.

Scott Hammond: But who, uh, but if you could answer who, who are you-

Terri Vroman Little: Okay

Scott Hammond: … Terri?

Terri Vroman Little: Mm-hmm.

Scott Hammond: And what do you want? Uh, we'd love to hear that.

Scott Hammond: Who-

Terri Vroman Little: Okay

Scott Hammond: … who's Terri?

Terri Vroman Little: I am a mom and a wife and a

Terri Vroman Little: granny.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: I am tenacious and vicious. Vicious is my

Terri Vroman Little: trail name.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Is that the competitive thing, that kind of vicious?

Terri Vroman Little: Well, it was when I was working trails, and because I'm a smallish person, again, um, it was just kind of h- ironic that I could be vicious.

Terri Vroman Little: So-

Scott Hammond: Dude, yeah

Terri Vroman Little: … it fits. Yeah. And I can be vicious if you mess with me in the wrong place.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Vicious comes in all sizes.

Terri Vroman Little: Especially now. Yeah. No.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, so I'm also a runner. I love wild swimming out in, um, the bay and the

Terri Vroman Little: lagoons-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … not the ocean. Um, and I, I-

Scott Hammond: Wait, hard stop. What is a wild swim?

Terri Vroman Little: You-

Scott Hammond: Just-

Terri Vroman Little: You swim in open water

Scott Hammond: … just go swim.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: So, uh, wetsuit, no wetsuit.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Swimsuits, yes, usually.

Scott Hammond: You…

Terri Vroman Little: Um,

Terri Vroman Little: yeah.

Scott Hammond: So-

Terri Vroman Little: And I, I

Terri Vroman Little: am a g- a get after it. Like part of after I was injured, my, one of my things is I wanted to get back into Kings Cache Canyon National Park-

Scott Hammond: Oh, wow

Terri Vroman Little: … that following summer and be able to backpack in, and it was really excruciating.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Terri Vroman Little: So I believe in wilderness as a, a route to-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … reclaiming yourself-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … to recovering from pretty much anything that's wrecked you.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, and I'm optimistic about our future. I believe in-

Scott Hammond: Nice

Terri Vroman Little: … small children and their value.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Is that enough?

Scott Hammond: That's great. Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Okay.

Scott Hammond: And so, uh, that's your, so what do you, what would you like to see happen? What do you want?

Terri Vroman Little: I-

Scott Hammond: What do you want for Humboldt?

Terri Vroman Little: I want for Humboldt the resources for small

Terri Vroman Little: children and other people-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … who, to be able to have their needs met, not spoiled.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Like accountability, the freedom within limits to be able to

Terri Vroman Little: thrive-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … to support the people supporting them with a living wage.

Terri Vroman Little: Um-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … and I want Humboldt to be sustainable for

Terri Vroman Little: everyone.

Scott Hammond: I like it.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Me too. So when we come to your funeral and see your tombstone, maybe at the same in event, what-

Terri Vroman Little: You'd have to find my ashes is one way

Scott Hammond: … what's your, what's your legacy? What's your funeral? What's your message? What's your tombstone gonna say? Or what would you like it to say?

Terri Vroman Little: Oh. Ooh. Um, I want it to say that I was a good mother to all my children. I have two that I barely ever, barely spoke of today. Anyway-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … two younger children that we adopted.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: So there's four of us. Um, so-

Scott Hammond: How old, how old are they, by the way?

Terri Vroman Little: Oh, uh, Wanda is 20.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: She's a junior down at UC Santa Cruz.

Scott Hammond: Oh, that's right.

Terri Vroman Little: And then Helen is turning 18 really soon, and she's a junior at Redwood Coast Montessori High School.

Scott Hammond: Wonderful.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. So, um, good mother, a tenacious partner,

Terri Vroman Little: um,

Terri Vroman Little: educator-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … advocate for children and their rights to

Terri Vroman Little: a good life.

Scott Hammond: Amen. Yeah. Good stuff.

Terri Vroman Little: Thank you.

Scott Hammond: I love it.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Uh, let's do a shout-out for the marathon one more time. What's the website?

Terri Vroman Little: Woo-hoo, humboldtbaymarathon.com.

Scott Hammond: .com.

Terri Vroman Little: There's a half marathon, which is half of a full. It's just halfway there.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: And then the full marathon.

Scott Hammond: And it's not terribly expensive like some, some are. The, I remember yours as being very affordable.

Terri Vroman Little: Thank you.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. And that's, we want it to be. Um, we also have a program for high school runners if they wanna do the half marathon. There's, um-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Terri Vroman Little: … think it's 25 or 30 bucks. I should know that too, but I don't…

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: I set the prices while I go, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Somewhere in there. Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: So it's accessible, and, uh, part of that is because it's a small local race-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … and a lot of local folks help. And we always need more help, so if you wanna volunteer.

Scott Hammond: So they could call or go to the website and contact somebody and-

Terri Vroman Little: Yep

Scott Hammond: … come on out.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: That's cool. Are you gonna do booths at the finish line again and-

Terri Vroman Little: Yes

Scott Hammond: … support booths?

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: And then food trucks are welcome.

Scott Hammond: Oh, wow.

Terri Vroman Little: And s- oh, and gosh, Terry, one of our major supporters is, um, uh, Eureka Main Street. So they-

Scott Hammond: Right

Terri Vroman Little: … um, they're kind of our finish line supporters.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: And then the finish arch, which was new last year, so fabulous.

Scott Hammond: Oh, that's cool.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. And that's from, um…

Terri Vroman Little: Oh, um-

Scott Hammond: Blue Ox? Did they b-

Terri Vroman Little: No.

Scott Hammond: Did somebody make one for you?

Terri Vroman Little: They, they got one. Pivotal Connections.

Terri Vroman Little: I'm sorry.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, I just got, I get so excited-

Scott Hammond: Pivotal Connections

Terri Vroman Little: … and I forget what I'm saying. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: So they're a physical therapy practice-

Scott Hammond: Okay

Terri Vroman Little: … on the plaza in Arcata, and they do all kinds of cool-

Scott Hammond: And a finish archway is pretty important stuff for a race.

Terri Vroman Little: It's a big deal. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. That's really cool.

Terri Vroman Little: So, and then they, they bring their A game with support too.

Scott Hammond: Nice. And how can we support Montessori and Humboldt?

Terri Vroman Little: Um, you can pay attention to what's going on with Redwood Coast Montessori specifically.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: We're the only public Montessori program.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, and then donate.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: You could, um, volunteer at the school.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um-

Scott Hammond: So there are private Montessori programs locally-

Terri Vroman Little: Yes

Scott Hammond: … as well?

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. There is one. I don't know what grades they go through-

Scott Hammond: Hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … now 'cause they've, um, shifted a little bit. And then the, there's, uh, at least two preschools, and those are, um, also private.

Scott Hammond: Wow, okay.

Terri Vroman Little: Which doesn't, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that.

Terri Vroman Little: It's just-

Scott Hammond: Sure

Terri Vroman Little: … um-

Scott Hammond: Different model.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Cool.

Terri Vroman Little: Well, the mo-

Scott Hammond: All right

Terri Vroman Little: … actually, you wouldn't even know if you walk in except that-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Terri Vroman Little: … people have to pay.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Terri Vroman Little: You have to pay to go through.

Scott Hammond: It's smaller scale.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Probably, yeah. Uh, parting shots, anything we missed?

Terri Vroman Little: I love my husband so much.

Scott Hammond: Ah.

Terri Vroman Little: And it, because-

Scott Hammond: What, what is his name? I don't think I've, I've seen him

Terri Vroman Little: … oh, Brian Little, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Brian. Hey, Brian. What's up?

Terri Vroman Little: So he's, he's the school director of Redwood Coast Montessori.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Terri Vroman Little: Um, so he, we had the plan that even before I was injured, he was gonna come in and be the director. I had to sort of be the director and a teacher in the beginning, and that was not ever my goal. I just wanted to teach, so he stepped in big time when I had to just disappear and… So yeah, Brian Little, the doer of many things, woodworker-

Scott Hammond: Brian Little-

Terri Vroman Little: … welder

Scott Hammond: … amazing, amazing man.

Terri Vroman Little: Yeah. Woo-hoo. Okay.

Scott Hammond: That's cool. All right. Shout out to Brian. Uh, hey, thanks for coming.

Terri Vroman Little: Thanks, Scott.

Scott Hammond: 100% Humboldt. Uh-

Terri Vroman Little: Yay

Scott Hammond: … thank you, Terri.

Terri Vroman Little: All right. Bye.

Scott Hammond: Bye.