#7. Bethany Cseh: Peacemaking, Self-Discovery, and the Spiritual Journey: A Pastor’s Perspective

Scott Hammond: Hey, everybody, and welcome. Welcome, Bethany.

Bethany Cseh: Thanks, Scott.

Scott Hammond: How are you?

Bethany Cseh: I'm doing well today. How are you?

Scott Hammond: Good. You're my first friend-

Bethany Cseh: Yay [laughs]

Scott Hammond: … that I've ever had on my podcast [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Your first friend.

Scott Hammond: All these other people, I know them rough-

vaguely, but you're my first-

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: … very good friend. Hi.

Bethany Cseh: Hey.

Scott Hammond: How are you?

Bethany Cseh: Hi. I'm doing pretty good, yeah.

Scott Hammond: So I'm just gonna go right into my two questions.

Bethany Cseh: O- you only have two?

Scott Hammond: Yeah, I usually save these for the last,

Bethany Cseh: Okay

Scott Hammond: … I told Joni I was gonna c- just hit you with these right away.

Bethany Cseh: Okay [laughs] .

Scott Hammond: So who is Bethany?

Bethany Cseh: Okay.

Scott Hammond: And what do you want?

Bethany Cseh: Ooh.

Scott Hammond: So we'll start with who are, who are you? Hey, Bethany.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Who, who are you today? [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Who am I today?

Uh, okay. Well, I am

a beloved child of God.

I am-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … a, um…

Yeah, that's a really good question. Like, are you asking the depth of who I am, identity, or-

Scott Hammond: All, all of it, yeah. Not just roles

Bethany Cseh: … or like what do I do for a living?

Scott Hammond: Some people go, "Well, I'm…

I got a bachelor's at hum- you-

Bethany Cseh: Okay

Scott Hammond: … core- let's go core. Let's go deep.

Bethany Cseh: Let's go core.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Let's go deep. Okay. Um, yeah, I

am still figuring myself out. I feel like I've never quite arrived at where I'm supposed to be or who I'm supposed to be, and I'm okay with being in that middle space of curiosity about myself-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … about my place in the world, about

what I'm called to do in this life.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And I know I mess up, and I know I get things wrong,

and I'm okay with uncertainty, and I'm okay with, uh, doubts about myself, others, and God. I'm okay with, um, things not being perfectly put together or

buttoned up.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And,

uh, and it's easier to say those things than

course. Um-

Scott Hammond: Yes, it is

Bethany Cseh: … I, I do wish that things were put together a little bit

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: But most, uh, most of my life, that is not the truth.

Scott Hammond: We don't get that luxury, yeah.

Bethany Cseh: No. No, we don't.

Scott Hammond: Now, those are the things that trouble me the most.

It's like the unknowns and the things I can't control, but-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … um, so comfortable in that space of discovery.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: I think of discovery when you-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and curiosity, which our friend Tamalo says-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … "Hey, let's get curious."

Bethany Cseh: [laughs] Yeah.

Scott Hammond: I'm curious.

Bethany Cseh: I think having that sense of wonder in the world

as people-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … um, is really important. I'm writing a book right now on

adoption, and the thing I'm coming back to again and again is how much we tend to say no towards people and towards-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … ourselves instead of yes-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … towards ourselves and others around us.

We approach people out of a sense of apprehension or fear-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … instead of wonder and curiosity.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Um,

and, and I think that I have a lot to learn along the way-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … from each other, from people around me.

Scott Hammond: So it's not the instant no. Nope.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Nope. A lot of us are the instant yes.

Bethany Cseh: Mm.

Scott Hammond: The pleaser.

Bethany Cseh: Yes.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Totally. Totally.

Scott Hammond: "Oh, yeah, I'll do that." "Well, no,

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Maybe not. [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, I'm an Enneagram nine for those who know

somebody who's a peacemaker.

Scott Hammond: Ah.

Bethany Cseh: Uh, but I easily resort to peacekeeper, where

I just want to make sure that things are settled around me and everybody feels at peace, but we aren't doing the hard work of deep enough to-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … make peace.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: It's almost like a keeper of peace throws the garbage

under the rug and then stomps on the rug-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … and pretends everything's okay,

takes the garbage out-

Scott Hammond: Right

Bethany Cseh: … and says, "Look at this. This is what we're dealing with here.

How do we do this gently, kindly-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … compassionately, and-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … see things, the truth for what it is-

Scott Hammond: Like it

Bethany Cseh: … and then move forward?" So yeah.

Scott Hammond: So the second part of the question is what-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … what do you want? What, what would you like-

Bethany Cseh: What do I want?

Scott Hammond: … today in the universe? [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Peace.

Scott Hammond: I'm ta-

Bethany Cseh: I want peace. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: I'm taking your order. What would you,

what would you like?

Bethany Cseh: Um, what do I want?

Um, that's such a loaded question, Scott.

Scott Hammond: I know. I thought I'd get the hard stuff out

[laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Gosh, I should ask you that same question.

Maybe you've already thought about it for yourself.

Scott Hammond: I haven't. [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: I didn't think so. [laughs] Um-

Scott Hammond: It's good to rethink it, though.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Who… These are both Joni's dad's questions.

Bethany Cseh: Okay.

Scott Hammond: 'Cause covering alcoholic, marathon runner Tom was too, too much fun.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: But he said if you could figure out who you are-

Bethany Cseh: Mm-hmm

Scott Hammond: … and what you want-

Bethany Cseh: Mm-hmm

Scott Hammond: … you know, those are the two questions.

If you, if you got some part of that, you got maybe the beginning of an identity. [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Um-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. What do I want? Um-

Scott Hammond: You wanna write a book

Bethany Cseh: … healthy-

Scott Hammond: Another book.

Bethany Cseh: Well, yeah, I'm writing another book.

Um, I want healthy community.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: I want to be the kind of person- [doorbell rings] Oh,

you got, you got people calling you.

Scott Hammond: Mm. Yeah, but-

Bethany Cseh: You are popular

Scott Hammond: … not anymore.

Bethany Cseh: Gotta ring that bell.

Um, I want to be the kind of person

who can sit back in a chair and be perfectly

at ease within myself and with those around me,

um,

and create spaces of ease-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … for people-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … that, that they feel like they belong,

um, and that they are included.

Scott Hammond: I like it.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. I always felt like… Growing up,

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … to the things that were happening around me, and in

relationships and friendships and-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … uh, groups and youth group, all the things,

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … somebody on the outside looking in,

feel that.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: So as much as I can create spaces where people feel included, wanted,

they belong-

Scott Hammond: So do you have an eye out for that person that's standing aside from the

Bethany Cseh: Always. Always.

Scott Hammond: "Hey, what's up?"

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, yeah. I'll be like in a conversation-

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: … with someone and I'm like, "Just stay focused on this person,

They'll be fine. Somebody else will talk to them over

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: But yet the sa- at the same time, I'm just like,

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … and make sure this person feels

Scott Hammond: Right.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Finally happened to me, I was at a, um, um, a service,

Bethel and-

Bethany Cseh: Mm-hmm

Scott Hammond: … Arcata where it was behind Safeway, whatever it was,

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scott Hammond: And Anthony Skinner was leading worship, who is-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … amazing. Hi, Anthony.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: And, um,

it was such a weird experience. I was there alone-

Bethany Cseh: Mm

Scott Hammond: … and no one said hi. It's like-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … is this scripted? Is, am I, do I smell bad?

Is-

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: … it, what am I exuding [laughs] here?

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And it was like, oh, and it was a really good lesson to go,

the person flying solo-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … go say hi."

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: "Hey,

friend."

Bethany Cseh: Totally.

Scott Hammond: "What's up, friendo? What are you doing?"

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, and I think, I think most people in this world are,

we're all pretty insecure. We're all pretty-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: …

[laughs] uh, scared, and, um, wondering if we will be

accepted.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And so if, I always figure if I can take on that mindset of,

um, everyone else is just as insecure as I am-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … or just as scared as I am, then

I don't feel as uncomfortable approaching people-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … because I can't wait for them to approach

um-

Scott Hammond: Right

Bethany Cseh: … 'cause they're probably just as scared

Scott Hammond: Or more.

Bethany Cseh: Or more.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: In the speaking business, they said,

no clothes on."

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: [laughs] I go, I never really got that, but oh well.

Bethany Cseh: No, that seems like I would be very-

Scott Hammond: Okay

Bethany Cseh: … distracted. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: [laughs] That'd be a hard one to kind of swallow.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Anyway, um, well, good. Uh, who were you at age 15?

Bethany Cseh: At age 15.

Scott Hammond: You grew up in LA area, is that correct?

Bethany Cseh: I grew up in the Bay Area.

Scott Hammond: Bay Area, that's right.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Uh, at age 15, I was starting or maybe

started high school. Um, I went to a Christian high school. I wa- I was raised in a Christian home and homeschooled, so I went from being homeschooled all the way through junior high until I started high school at a Christian high school. Um, I had braces from age 13, from like eighth grade until my freshman

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: So that,

homeschooled and braces and all the things-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Bethany Cseh: … kinda maybe added to the insecurity

Scott Hammond: Ah. [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: … I was feeling.

[laughs]

Scott Hammond: The break, your teeth are really straight now.

Bethany Cseh: They're very straight. They're very straight.

Um, and yeah, I, I swam in high school, so my day consisted of getting up at 5:00 in the morning-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … getting to the pract- to the pool at 5:30,

uh, and then getting over to school, being at school for however long, and then going back to the pool at 3:30 or 4:00, and then swimming for two hours, and then-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Bethany Cseh: … doing homework. So it was, um,

it was just a lot. And then also my parents grew, or we, I was raised in a home where my dad had a Christian Service Brigade.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: So he was supported financially through other people's love

support.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: So, uh, swim team was really expensive.

There were five kids in my family, and we just didn't have the financial

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: So in order for us to be on swim team, we, uh, had five paper

routes. So my mom would get us up early in the morning. Uh, if we had swim practice-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Bethany Cseh: … then we didn't have to deliver papers.

So it was either deliver papers or go to swim practice. Um, and yeah, we would be doing the paper route before

and then-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Bethany Cseh: … getting out to school and-

Scott Hammond: Earn it.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. It was, it was a full life.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: Then youth group on Wednesdays.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, two workouts a day of swimming.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: You, so you were a hardcore swimmer.

Bethany Cseh: Hardcore swimmer.

Scott Hammond: What'd you swim, freestyle?

Bethany Cseh: Uh, breaststroke.

Scott Hammond: Breas-

Bethany Cseh: All of them.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: I hated butterfly. I don't like doing things that are

painful. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: Butterfly, butterfly's kinda tough.

Bethany Cseh: It's too hard. I give up fast. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Did you play water polo too?

Bethany Cseh: I did in college. Yeah. Yeah, I was terrible at that.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: I could, I could stay afloat, and I could block things, but

hand-eye coordination, I-

Scott Hammond: Passing, shooting.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. No, could not. I seriously cannot do that still.

Scott Hammond: Water polo-

Bethany Cseh: Got no coordination

Scott Hammond: … it, it was brutal in high school.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah, they're gnarly.

Scott Hammond: Oh, we were a bunch of lower middle-class Bad

Coronado and beat 'em, and-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … Coach got thrown in the pool. He's an ex-

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: … old ex-Marine.

Bethany Cseh: Nice.

Scott Hammond: Ruined his leather belt and his wallet,

Bethany Cseh: Good times

Scott Hammond: … that was a hard workout the next day.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, I bet.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, he got… But it was a big victory s-

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: So, so 15. What were you like at 20? What, what

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Um, I met Jason at 20.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: So I was 20 when I met him. We were at a

camp, Christian camp called Hume Lake.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And, um, and I, we had been going the

same week with our churches. He was from LA, and I was from the Bay, going the same week-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … since junior high, but we didn't meet until-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … we were out of high school

Um, so at 20 we were already planning for marriage. We knew we wanted to get married right

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, yeah. He-

Scott Hammond: What is right away? Like, within weeks, or…?

Bethany Cseh: Uh, yeah, like we… So we met at the camp.

He saw me jumping on a pogo stick in a pogo stick competition that I won.

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Of course.

Scott Hammond: Of course.

Bethany Cseh: And he turned to his friend, and he said, "I'm gonna marry

which is so weird.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: But it turned out to be correct.

Scott Hammond: Prophetic?

Bethany Cseh: Prophetic. [laughs] And, uh, and so he got my email

address, and we emailed back and forth and talked on the phone.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And a couple weeks after camp

ended, uh, he came down to the Bay Area, or up to the Bay Area and-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … we spent the day together, and-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Bethany Cseh: … it was, it was wonderful. We had, we just really connected,

within-… three months, I think it was, we opened a b- a joint banking account to save for

Scott Hammond: Whoa.

Bethany Cseh: So that's what I mean by right away.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs] Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Dest- you are my density.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Dest- destiny.

Bethany Cseh: Destiny. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: And then we got married. I was 21, and he was 20, and-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … um, and that was 22 years ago.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: 22 years ago. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Huh. Congrats.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, thanks.

Scott Hammond: Is your anniversary in the summer?

Bethany Cseh: Uh, February.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. It seems like everybody we know is June,

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … uh, what was life like at age 30?

So fast-forward nine years and-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … were you guys in Humboldt yet?

Bethany Cseh: We were. Yeah, we came to Humboldt in, when I was

26, I think-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … 27. 2006.

Uh, we moved to Humboldt and started Catalyst Church, and, um, within, like, a month of being here, we got our first, second kid, Isaac. Uh, we had a, an unsuccessful adoption with our first Matthew. Uh, and so we got our son, Isaac.

And so-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … by the time I was 30, we ha-

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: So we got Emily a few years later, and then, um,

then a year after Emily, we got Antonio.

Scott Hammond: Nice.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. So when, at 30, we had three kids.

Um,

and still doing the pastoring thing. I wasn't a pastor until later on.

I-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … didn't… I don't know. I, I don't really think I believed

could be pastors.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: It took me a long time to accept that for myself.

Um, so I was a stay-at-home mom, which was fantastic.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: I loved being able to do that, and it was a privilege to be able to stay

the kids until Antonio was about five. Um, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Were you guys always in Blue Lake?

Bethany Cseh: No, when we moved here, we moved to Arcata.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And then from Arcata, we moved to Eureka,

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And then we bought a house in Blue Lake five year- or nine years ago.

Um-

Scott Hammond: We love Blue Lake.

Bethany Cseh: Oh, my gosh. Me too. It… We just feel so grateful to

live there.

Scott Hammond: Was it sunny today in Blue Lake?

Bethany Cseh: It was sunny in Blue Lake today.

Scott Hammond: Oh, man.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: Oh, wow.

Bethany Cseh: And you could just see the fog just, like-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Bethany Cseh: … creeping over the hills.

Scott Hammond: It's just crap here all day.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: It's just terrible.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: So what brought you and the team to Catalyst?

So, uh-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and, and wanted to talk about your pastoral

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … too, but, uh, what, what prompted all that?

I, I can know a little bit of the backstory,

Bethany Cseh: Sure. Yeah. Uh, we were living in Orange County.

We were, Jason and I were going to college at a school called Vanguard University-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … in Costa Mesa, and we were, um,

we were living in something called married student housing. We had never been to Humboldt. Well, we drove through on our honeymoon, but, uh, I remember passing through and being like, "This is a weird place."

Scott Hammond: Sketchy.

Bethany Cseh: I wonder why people live here.

Scott Hammond: So sketchy.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: Humboldt County, folks.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: California.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. So, uh, we were l- we were living in married student housing,

couple who were from Fortuna-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … uh, Dan and Rachel Davis.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And we got to be really close with them,

other couples, and Dan felt really called to come to to start a Christian college.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And so Jason and Dan would go on these long runs

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … this vision that Dan had. Uh, and Jason was just like, "What,

ever think of starting a church first, uh, before-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … uh, college?" And he's like, "Yeah, maybe." And so then-

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: … by that point, Jason and Dan started planning to start this

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: And they were both on staff at a church called Rockharbor down there,

and they worked together there, and so-

Scott Hammond: That's Orange County?

Bethany Cseh: That's in Orange County, yeah, in Costa Mesa.

Scott Hammond: We met a guy from Rockharbor Sunday at Branches.

Bethany Cseh: No way.

Scott Hammond: In Arcata.

Bethany Cseh: Really?

Scott Hammond: Jeff, what's his name? He had Straw Hat Pizza up here in Arcata

Bethany Cseh: Oh, okay.

Scott Hammond: In Uniontown.

Bethany Cseh: Wow.

Scott Hammond: He went to Rockharbor.

Bethany Cseh: Okay.

Scott Hammond: He was visiting here.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Bethany Cseh: So Rockharbor helped st- start, or s- uh, helped us start

Catalyst.

Scott Hammond: Oh, okay.

Bethany Cseh: Sent us with money and resources and, um,

pastoral care and all the things that we needed.

Scott Hammond: So you got Saddleback, Rockharbor, Mariners.

Bethany Cseh: Mariners.

Scott Hammond: There's a whole lot of-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … churches up here.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Mariners started Rockharbor.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: My friend Jim ne- said never call it the OC.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: It's like calling it Diego or Frisco.

Bethany Cseh: Right. Right.

Scott Hammond: Don't do that.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs] No one appreciates it.

Scott Hammond: He's get really mad on the phone.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: "Hey, dude, we're going to Mendo." [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: Stop saying those things.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Well, cool. So, um, what,

what happened with… What happened to starting Catalyst?

What, what-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … was the dynamic and-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … 'cause you guys were at the community center in Arcata for

Bethany Cseh: We were. We were at, actually, the D Street Neighborhood Center.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: We met there for a while, and then, uh, and it was a night service.

It was really-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … it was really fun, a lot of college students, a lot of, uh,

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And we were all young at that point, too.

Uh, and then we met at the Presbyterian Church

Arcata-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … on 11th and G Street.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

Bethany Cseh: That was a great location. From there, we went

to Hum Brews, and we met in their, their little, uh, venue area, which-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Bethany Cseh: … was, it was great in a lot of ways.

It was fun to have a church in a bar.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Uh, but it really was hard with kids-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … the kids ministry because, uh, before we would get service started,

to, like, mop the floors from the party the night

Scott Hammond: Right.

Bethany Cseh: The floors were always gross and sticky.

Scott Hammond: Smell like-

Bethany Cseh: It smelled like beer and weed and-

Scott Hammond: … smells like beer.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, yeah. We put, we had, like, the kids in the green room,

definitely be, like, joints in the corner. And we're like, "Oh, this isn't really working."

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: So from there, we moved back to the Presbyterian

Church.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And we were there for a few years. And then Jason

pastors.

Scott Hammond: Oh.

Bethany Cseh: So we pastored two different churches,

Church-

Scott Hammond: Gotcha

Bethany Cseh: … until a couple years ago

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: So Catalyst is now-

Scott Hammond: So it's moved a- around a bit.

Bethany Cseh: It's moved around a bit, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: We became an, a morning service instead of a night

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: So our service is at 11:00, and we meet right next to the co-op in

Arcata. And, um, there's, like, a three-story building-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … uh, that there's, like, a surf shop next to it.

And, uh-

Scott Hammond: It's close

Bethany Cseh: … a lot of these-

Scott Hammond: It's got-… stuff on it.

Bethany Cseh: Oh, yeah, the surf shop did close.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, they, there's Pilates-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and yoga next door.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, and food-wise.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. I think that they're gonna reopen the surf shop.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

Bethany Cseh: If they weren't, then we were gonna try to get it for our kids

be more space-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … for that. But I think-

Scott Hammond: Why not?

Bethany Cseh: … it's gonna reopen as a surf shop.

Scott Hammond: So, uh, so how did you launch into being pastor

Bethany Cseh: Oh, that's a great question.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. H- well, I… Tell us all about that because-

Bethany Cseh: Okay. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: … um, full disclosure, um, I, I look at Bethany as my pastor

Bethany Cseh: Thanks.

Scott Hammond: And Jason. And so-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … it's amazing. And, um,

I, uh, I wanted to say that. So, uh-

Bethany Cseh: Thanks, Scott

Scott Hammond: … what, what's your, uh, what's your deal with the pastorship?

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: How, [laughs] how's that working out?

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. [laughs] Uh, yeah, it's, it, it

started different for me because, again, I was raised pretty conservative-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … where women weren't really allowed to, uh,

pastor or lead any kind of-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … um, any men over the age of what?

Like 14 or something like that, or even, like, younger.

Scott Hammond: So there was a number?

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Hammond: You seem to be children's church, but not teenage boy church.

Bethany Cseh: Children's church. Right. Exactly.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Exactly. And it would be a children's director,

at the church that I grew up.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: So

I really believed that women weren't allowed to be in a of ministerial support in that way.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And obviously a lot of people still believe that.

There's scriptures that, um, if reading it at face value,

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … that's absolutely true. Uh,

in the world. The Southern Baptist Convention just doubled down on their mandate that women are not allowed to be pastors or take on that-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … role, and there's been a number of churches

Convention-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … Saddleback being one. Uh, and it's a big deal.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: It's full of contention, and it's really sad to see-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … uh, the disunity that happens in the church.

It happens everywhere, but it's just, it feels more obvious in the church

happens-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … 'cause we're supposed to be set apart.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Um-

Scott Hammond: Disappointing.

Bethany Cseh: It's disappointing. It's really sad.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: It's really, really sad. And so I didn't think

I would ever be a pastor. I… The first sermon I preached at Catalyst was just a couple months after we started and I really felt like I was just gonna share my heart so I

preaching-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … 'cause sharing your heart as a lady

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: So, and I stood up there and I gave this sermon, and I was just

like, "Oh, crap. What do I do with this?"

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Like, I feel like God is calling me into something

into.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: I feel like God is giving me this gift

to. What do I do with this?

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And it was something I've, I wrestled with for a really long time.

I had to do a lot of research, a lot of prayer. I spoke with different women who are pastors-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … and different men who are affirming of women pastors and,

um, it, it was something that I, yeah, it was a struggle.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: It was a struggle. I lived in a ten- in

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Um, and I still preached here and there.

And then when Dan and Rachel left Catalyst um, I took on the main teaching role, which I never saw

coming.

Scott Hammond: Pretty pastoral.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] And then about maybe a

year after I was doing most of the preaching, our leadership team, we had, like, an elders meeting and they said, "It's time that we, that we name you a pastor of this church."

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And I was like, "I don't need that title."

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: "It's fine. I'm fine with just Bethany.

I don't need the title." And they said, "Yeah, but other people need you to have

that title."

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: "So you need to take that."

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: And I was like, "Okay." And they prayed over me and, and then, um,

they, they licensed me as a pastor.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: I, I didn't have a pastoral degree.

I have a degree in psychology, like, just a, a BA.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Um,

and then I went to seminary and got a Master's of Divinity.

So, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Let's do a podcast. Joni's reading this book by this guy,

is, but-

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: … he did this whole thing on women in

He spent about half the book on Deborah, the judge.

Bethany Cseh: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And she was, like, hardcore.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: She was like-

Bethany Cseh: Dude, seriously

Scott Hammond: … she, she led

a lot of stuff, and then talks about Roman women

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … had leadership.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Hammond: And so there's tension 'cause there's a lot of poverty in amongst

There was that gender, big-

Bethany Cseh: Totally

Scott Hammond: … crazy gender gap.

Bethany Cseh: Yep.

Scott Hammond: So i- it was, it… really interesting on that.

So, um, I have really enjoyed every sermon I've heard you preach.

Bethany Cseh: Thank you.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. And I wasn't out there critic-

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: … notebook taking notes.

Bethany Cseh: Furiously writing, scribbling notes.

Scott Hammond: Never. No, but I listen. And so-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … uh, um, you know,

Romans is really fun.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, yeah. We, we finished that series on Romans and-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … oof.

Scott Hammond: Oof.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Not an easy one. Um-

Bethany Cseh: No.

Scott Hammond: How about let's shift for a second.

Bethany Cseh: Okay.

Scott Hammond: I wanna talk about the books.

Bethany Cseh: Sure.

Scott Hammond: We'll come back to the books-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … 'cause you've, that you've written two, right?

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Let's go with, let's go with the books.

Bethany Cseh: Okay. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: So you wrote the book on, on, on Lent.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. I did one, Stepping Into Lent, and it was, it's 40

days, and they're, they're guided reflections, um, of, on an area of scripture. And-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … just about the, the wilderness of life, like walking

through-

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: … excuse me, the difficulty of, um,

the losses that we have.

Scott Hammond: Like recently?

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know, I know.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: I feel like I need to bust out Lent again just because there's been so

our community and-

Scott Hammond: It's just weird

Bethany Cseh: … difficulty.

Scott Hammond: I don't know. Um, hey, you folks out there in your communities,

anybody-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah. It's just-

Scott Hammond: … sick or lost or dying? 'Cause it's, it, it's just…

And, and I think it comes with knowing a lot of

Bethany Cseh: Sure. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So this county, you're like two layers away from knowing

somebody that you know.

Bethany Cseh: Yep, yep.

Scott Hammond: And-

Bethany Cseh: We're so connected here

Scott Hammond: … yeah. And there's that Kevin Bacon, that seven li-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … this is, like, one or two.

Bethany Cseh: I know. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: And we talk about that a lot.

Bethany Cseh: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: You know, it's, it's, um-It's,

I would say weird, and I don't know if that's a good word. It's, uh, palpable.

Bethany Cseh: Mm.

Scott Hammond: And, and weird.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: There's this, this sense of… Like this lady that works

with me, her husband died in Texas. She had to go back, and-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and the, the murders, and there's

a friend… You know, so it's just weird.

Bethany Cseh: It is.

Scott Hammond: And I don't know where we're going with that one, but-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … so Lent is w- I thought about that this morning.

We, Joni and I try to do a little reading

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And so we're reading what's his name, the Catholic, um-

Bethany Cseh: Richard Rohr?

Scott Hammond: The other one.

Bethany Cseh: Uh, N.T. Wright? No, he's Anglican.

Scott Hammond: Noonan? New-

Bethany Cseh: Nouwen. Henri Nouwen.

Scott Hammond: Henri Nouwen.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Pretty good.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And we've put the Lent book over here,

[laughs]

Bethany Cseh: It's been a few.

Scott Hammond: Three months.

Bethany Cseh: It's been like three months. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: I was thinking, I go, "Man."

Bethany Cseh: Two months, I guess.

Scott Hammond: We start stuff and never fini- We gotta finish. We're a couple days away.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Finish it. So what, what's the other book?

Bethany Cseh: Uh, so Stepping Into Advent is-

Scott Hammond: Oh, that's right

Bethany Cseh: … the other one, and it, and Advent is all about, you know,

Christmas, preparing for the, the arrival of Christ. So starting in a space of darkness and moving progressively

towards-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … light. Um, I, I feel like a lot of the things that

I write about, I, I don't try to just create this like happy-go-lucky narrative.

I, I-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … feel like there's just this reality of

Being human-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … means

struggling with, um, complexity and difficulty and, uh, really difficult situations that we all-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … go through in our lives. So I don't want to just slap some

positivity on it even though I, I am somebody who easily sees the positive in life. Like I, and I like to get there quickly. Um.

[laughs]

Scott Hammond: Top three takeaways.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Here they come.

Bethany Cseh: Here we go.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Bethany Cseh: Uh,

but, you know, the, the Hebrew, the Jewish people have this practice of sitting shiva, um, of sitting in the, in the silence of death of, with, with their

community.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And I think that that's a really important practice.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Not to offer some sort of platitude or like, "Oh, God just needed

another angel," or something, you know, everything happens for a reason.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Bethany Cseh: But actually sitting in the, in, in the

discomfort of what death is.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: That death ha- happens to all of us,

words to explain it away or-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … words to make sense of the tragedies in

Um, but I think as human beings we're called discomfort with each other-

Scott Hammond: And it's okay

Bethany Cseh: … without those words.

Scott Hammond: It's an okay process.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: I run from it.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Constantly.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Oh, I know. It's, it just… Well,

wanna like-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … numb or-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … avoid pain.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Um, and sometimes just for our own mental

to numb or we have to avoid pain.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: But we can't be there for too long because then things just deteriorate

Scott Hammond: Right

Bethany Cseh: … and around us. So.

Scott Hammond: And the addictions and de-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … demons appear and-

Bethany Cseh: Totally

Scott Hammond: … the appetites begin.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Yeah. I, that's really good.

Joni and I were just talking about this, so that idea of, of sitting in the darkness, and I said, "Well, you gotta do it with God."

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: She goes, "Yeah, but

th- I need to honor that space." And I said, "Well,

Bethany Cseh: Mm.

Scott Hammond: And she, and so we had this kinda,

It was, it was just interesting 'cause there's, there is grief.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And I went and grieved my father at the beach for 15 minutes,

Bethany Cseh: Yes.

Scott Hammond: And I was finished.

Bethany Cseh: Mm.

Scott Hammond: Or so I thought.

Bethany Cseh: Mm. Mm.

Scott Hammond: Till nine months later when it came out in snotty, wet-

Bethany Cseh: Yep

Scott Hammond: … gross tears and just heaving chest and-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … so grief is f- you're ev- Interesting.

So I wanna go back to the, um, the two books 'cause-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … I think you're on a theme there that,

if you would kindly elaborate on, that, that, um, that joy comes in the morning.

Bethany Cseh: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Hammond: But sometimes there's the night-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah

Scott Hammond: … that we have to walk through. 'Cause

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. So there's that duality and that tension,

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, that tension.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: I was thinking this week about this passage of, um,

of Thomas, which the, the disciple Thomas, and, you know, in, traditionally in the church we've tacked on the name Doubting in front of his name.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: He's never just Thomas. He's Doubting Thomas.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Bethany Cseh: And I was reflecting about how he was,

um, somehow not involved with the rest of his of the disciples after Jesus-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … died on the cross, was risen from the dead,

And he appeared to them, and Thomas wasn't there for some reason. I don't know if he had to like, you know, take care of, like bring his kid to the, to work or something. I don't know where he was. He missed out. And he says to the disciples, he says, I won't believe that I, that you saw Jesus unless I can put my on his side and touch his wounds."

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And,

and whatever. That's, yeah, I get it. I, I get that need, for sure.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And then the story goes on,

time passes, I don't know how long, but eventually Thomas is there with his friends and disciples, these other disciples,

And

Jesus approaches Thomas and says, "Peace be with you."

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Like that was Jesus' response first.

"Peace be with you."

Scott Hammond: And that means something special, actually-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … in Hebrew, right?

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Is that a shalom shalom?

Bethany Cseh: It's a shalom, this sense of like everything's okay.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Everything is whole in you and around you.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And even in these wounds that are like my body broken,

this wholeness that happens-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … because of the peace that I bring.

So th- so Jesus is offering Thomas this peace, Jesus goes above and beyond and he says, "Put your hand in my side and touch my wounds."

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Thomas already knew that Jesus was alive in

Scott Hammond: Right.

Bethany Cseh: Thomas didn't need to do this thing.And I think that the grace

that Jesus provided in that moment to say, "Touch these wounds," was for Thomas to see that or to understand that when he didn't see Jesus, and he said, "And I will not believe Jesus

His wounds"-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: …

it's like Thomas was able to see that Jesus was with him even when He wasn't there.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Jesus heard Thomas.

Scott Hammond: Oh, okay.

Bethany Cseh: He heard the heart of Thomas that said, "I need to touch." And it's

not like Thomas was like, "Oh, you're here. I can finally touch you." Jesus offered his body to Thomas-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … to say, "Touch," even though he didn't,

moment. What Thomas needed was to know that when Jesus wasn't there,

was there-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … 'cause he was, uh, there enough to hear him say-

Scott Hammond: It's good

Bethany Cseh: … "I need to touch."

Scott Hammond: I like it.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, so the, the idea of, like, living in the

tension of the pain of today, the difficulties that people are facing, that we are all-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … facing.

Scott Hammond: Division.

Bethany Cseh: The division, um, the arguments, the,

um, estrangement in our families, all of the

areas.

Scott Hammond: Betrayals.

Bethany Cseh: The betrayals. All the areas-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … that are really hard and dark-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … and, and feeling impossible,

um, when we feel like we're alone.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And we think, "Oh, I just need to wait till the morning,

will appear," yes, that is true, 'cause everything happens differently when we get a good night's sleep.

But also-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … to know that Christ is with us in that darkness-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … that He's listening to the cries of our

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And in the morning, He might appear and be like,

Scott Hammond: Right.

Bethany Cseh: But He's been with us all along.

Scott Hammond: Oh, but what about the night? Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Yeah.

Scott Hammond: That's good. I like that.

So, uh, you're on sabbatical.

Bethany Cseh: I am. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: [laughs] It's Bethany at rest.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, I haven't-

Scott Hammond: Um-

Bethany Cseh: … preached a sermon in a long time.

Scott Hammond: It's good.

Bethany Cseh: So-

Scott Hammond: No, thank you

Bethany Cseh: … yeah, yeah

Scott Hammond: … for sure.

Bethany Cseh: Welcome to church, guys.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: How'd, how'd she do, Nick?

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: It's good? Okay, Nick liked it. Um, so what are

your three things in your life that you're proud of?

Bethany Cseh: Hmm.

What I'm proud of. I don't know. That's a, that's a loaded question, too.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: I'm proud of,

uh, I'm proud of who I am.

Scott Hammond: [clears throat]

Bethany Cseh: Um,

like, that I take risks in my life.

Scott Hammond: Hmm.

Bethany Cseh: I'm proud of that.

I'm proud of how I am a mom. Uh, adoption is not an easy path forward.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And, um, being a mom in general.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Uh, being a parent is really hard, and I've got three

teenagers, and-

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: … that's really hard. Um, there's a lot of emotional angst,

it doesn't necessarily get easier when they become adults either, so kind of bracing for that.

Um-

Scott Hammond: It's different.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Um, and I'm- I'm proud of, I'm proud of being a pastor, just being

able to hold space for people.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Um,

I f- I feel like I'm able to do that really well.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: That God, God uses me in that way.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Um,

and I- I'll tack on I'm- I'm proud of being a wife, obviously. Like, Jason's the best human I've ever known.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: And to be able to do life together and to do everything

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … pretty spectacular. I feel very, very honored and blessed.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: He could be with me all the time. Like,

and I need-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … more space than he does.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: So we've had to learn how to, like, move and-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … um, dodge each other or whatever when needed, but-

Scott Hammond: Right

Bethany Cseh: … but that's, like, it's a lifelong learning.

Like, we just, we become better for each other-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … as we become more aware of our own needs

uh, less insecure in ourselves. So when we're-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … more secure about who we are, we

together.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And that's been really cool to see.

Scott Hammond: I was told that in counseling.

Bethany Cseh: Oh, yeah? [laughs]

Scott Hammond: I don't believe it.

No, I do. I do. [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, it just, it- it works out really well-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … that whole, like, security. You know?

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: That's good.

Scott Hammond: That's good. I- I wanna go back to doubt for a minute.

Bethany Cseh: Go for it.

Scott Hammond: Doubt is not the enemy of faith.

Bethany Cseh: No.

Scott Hammond: Doubt is… Doubt's cool, man. You should question that faith.

Bethany Cseh: I know.

Scott Hammond: Because if it's any good, it's gonna stand.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Doubt is the enemy-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … of fascism-

Bethany Cseh: Mm

Scott Hammond: … and totalitarians.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Narcissists.

Bethany Cseh: Mm.

Scott Hammond: I'm gonna doubt the narcissist in my… How dare you?

Bethany Cseh: Mm.

Scott Hammond: You can't do that, and yes, so th- that-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … that all deserves doubt.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Hammond: And maybe faith deserves a little doubt and questioning 'cause it's,

it's, it'll either stand or not. The truth is either truth,

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So I really, I like that. Um, how about exciting new developments,

uh, for y'all? And I guess we could talk about sabbatical

as-

Bethany Cseh: Sure

Scott Hammond: … and maybe

significant challenges coming up.

Bethany Cseh: Okay.

Anything specific about that? Mm.

Scott Hammond: I don't know. Um, how about challenges in,

sabbatical? Just-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … slowing it down.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: How is, how has that gone?

Bethany Cseh: It's so hard-

Scott Hammond: Are you halfway through?

Bethany Cseh: … to rest.

Scott Hammond: Are you about at the halfway?

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, we're halfway through.

Scott Hammond: You're at half, halftime already.

[laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Ugh. And sometimes I'm just like, "Oh, gosh,

work." I just, I love not having responsibilities. I mean, obviously, you know, I'm still a mom of three teenagers, and-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … there's just a load of responsibilities

Um, but it's, it took me a while to settle down.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Um,

I think one of the hardest parts about a sabbatical, at least the one that we're taking, is it's not, like, a research sabbatical,

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … show for it at the end.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: So I like to,

I like to, like, accomplish things in my life.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: I like to produce content for people.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Um, I've taken a step away from social media,

in, in, like, when it comes to posting. Um, and that's, that's been hard because I really love to write-Good stuff-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … to share with other people.

Scott Hammond: Are you making notes for your f- future-

Bethany Cseh: I haven't been

Scott Hammond: … you know-

Bethany Cseh: No

Scott Hammond: … outlining anything?

Bethany Cseh: No. I know, it's really weird. Uh, it's like a, it's a-

Scott Hammond: Well, it'll come back.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: It'll come up.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. It's a discipline, um, to not produce.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And just to be. It's been really hard.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: But really good.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Really, um, healing in a lot of ways.

Scott Hammond: Hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Uh, there's, um, there's just like this thought, I

think, and maybe you feel this too, I don't think it's just for pastors, but, that I need to be needed.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Or if I'm not,

if I'm not on demand for somebody's needs, then,

um-

Scott Hammond: Hmm

Bethany Cseh: … then I don't have value.

Scott Hammond: Somehow diminished.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. So it's, it's-

Scott Hammond: Oh. So on demand-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … like instant demand access.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Being… And that's something I love.

I love being accessible-

Scott Hammond: Right

Bethany Cseh: … for people, um-

Scott Hammond: But-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … that's a two-edged sword.

Bethany Cseh: It is.

Scott Hammond: 'Cause the burnout could-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … be part of that.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: I love sharing my life with people-

Scott Hammond: Mm. Mm

Bethany Cseh: … so posting pictures and, you know, what I'm up to.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: It's, it's really fun for me.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: The problem with it is that it can easily become

this little dopamine rush that-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … I find myself needing more and more of.

So I'll, I'll go on social media just to check whatever I've done.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Um, and most of the time it's fairly healthy,

unhealthy pretty quick for me.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And I was talking to another pastor and I was mentioning like, "Yeah,

been on social media a lot," and she said, "Oh, I, my, my discipline is to be on social media because I want to be unseen. I want to like, be in my own little life, and I'm more of an introvert, so-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Bethany Cseh: … social media is a discipline for me to put myself out

Scott Hammond: Huh.

Bethany Cseh: So it's just, it, you know, there's-

Scott Hammond: Okay

Bethany Cseh: … different, different paths forward, I guess, but-

Scott Hammond: Everybody's different.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Well, I brought my bell. [bell rings]

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: Okay. Do you know what time that is of the show,

That's the time where we ask Bethany favorite things about Humboldt. Are you ready?

Bethany Cseh: Ooh.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So, uh, what should I ask first? Hey, a-

cocktail place where if you, if you and Jason-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … were gonna go get a cocktail,

uh, where would you go?

Bethany Cseh: Oof, that's a hard question. There's so many great places.

Scott Hammond: There's a lot.

Bethany Cseh: Okay. Can I name my top three?

Scott Hammond: Of course.

Bethany Cseh: Okay, good, 'cause I don't wanna leave anybody out.

Scott Hammond: Oh, you will.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Oh, geez Louise. I'm not much of a cocktail drinker.

I've, I like a good glass of wine or a really good beer.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

Bethany Cseh: So for beer, Redwood Curtain all the, all the time.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Although, going to the Mad River Brewery

Scott Hammond: And you can walk from your house. [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: I can walk from my house and walk home.

Scott Hammond: Crawl home. [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: [laughs] Um, I love Septentrio. It, it-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … has such a good vibe. Um, The Wine Cellar is a great place-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … to get a glass of wine. Uh, Libation is

awesome. Noah Ryan is the owner there, and he-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … he knows wine really, really well.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Um,

and then honestly, like, so Jason and I do a date night every Friday.

Scott Hammond: Ah.

Bethany Cseh: Uh, and it started during COVID.

Subaru.

Scott Hammond: Oh.

Bethany Cseh: Uh, we would put the, the hatch up and put like blankets in the

all the backseat down, um, and, and we'd put out a charcuterie board and share a really nice bottle of wine together and watch a movie. And we like allowed our kids to have unending screen time from like 6:00 PM to n- to midnight.

Scott Hammond: Would you actually drive somewhere or just do-

Bethany Cseh: No, we would go in our backyard.

Scott Hammond: Oh

Bethany Cseh: … in our driveway. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: It's blue, like it's sunny, kids.

Bethany Cseh: So we did that during COVID, and then once things started opening up we

go back out. And so, um, a wa- a favorite place to end up oftentimes is Mazzotti's.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: I love going there and-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … getting a glass of wine

But-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: …

yeah, th- that's a lot. That's a lot of places.

And-

Scott Hammond: That's a lot, yeah

Bethany Cseh: … it sh- it makes me sound like I imbibe a lot,

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: … maybe not, maybe.

Scott Hammond: Maybe, whatever.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: Okay. So let's go with number two. [bell rings]

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Are you ready?

Bethany Cseh: Totally.

Scott Hammond: What's your favorite burger in the whole county if you had to,

a burger right now-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … you were super famished-

Bethany Cseh: Shoot

Scott Hammond: … where would you go?

Bethany Cseh: Somebody asked me that the other day.

Oh, we had burgers on 4th of July, and there was a whole argument at our about The Burger Joint being the best, and then somebody else was like, "No, is the best." Then somebody else said In-N-Out.

Um, uh, the best burger, I don't know. I can't answer that. There's-

Scott Hammond: Just threw out three, but-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. [laughs] I love a good cheeseburger.

I think Stars would be my favorite, just easy-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … go-to place.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: It always feels good. I don't love their fries.

I love french fries.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: French fries are my jam. So my favorite fries would be, um, APD-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … Arcata Pizza and Deli.

In the same realm would be Loco Fish Co. They've got great fries too.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, had theirs.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Funny story. Burger King, McKinleyville.

Bethany Cseh: They've got great fries?

Scott Hammond: It's so… I said less, said, "Oh, their fries are good." You're just,

have terrible taste in food.

Bethany Cseh: I love McDonald's fries.

Scott Hammond: And they weren't, they're not bad.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And if you get In-N-Out fries-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … hot, I think they're the best.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: For me.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Um, okay, one more. How 'bout you have four hours to go hike

and be, and go on a solitude hike-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and pray and-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … bring a notebook, bring your phone, don't bring your phone,

God, nature. What, where do you hike? Where would you go?

Bethany Cseh: Locally. I don't go very far. I usually just do the Beach Loop,

um-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … on the Sunny Brae Trail. Uh, I love the Arcata Ridge Trail.

And, um-

Scott Hammond: It's all behind Arcata?

Bethany Cseh: All behind Arcata.

Scott Hammond: Let me show you where it's at, folks.

Bethany Cseh: Oh, yeah, you got this map here.

Scott Hammond: It's right over in here in Arcata.

Bethany Cseh: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think-

Scott Hammond: I don't wanna hit this too hard 'cause it fell down last time.

Bethany Cseh: They can all see it.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, it's right-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, they can see it

Scott Hammond: … it's, it's right-

Bethany Cseh: Just right behind you.

Scott Hammond: You'll love it. It's right, it's right behind Arcata.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: Yeah. [laughs] No, that's Joanie's jam.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: I just hiked the Beach Trail with my friend Deanna this morning,

nice.

Scott Hammond: It's kinda steep, right?

Bethany Cseh: Oh, yeah, there's some steep spots.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: You have to stop talking on the steep spots and just, like, m-

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Yeah. We really like Prairie Creek 'cause

trails.We went, um, to Lyon's, Lyon's Road. Ly- it's way up Bald

Hills.

Bethany Cseh: Mm-hmm.

Scott Hammond: Like way…

Bethany Cseh: I've never been over there.

Scott Hammond: Oh, it was wild. It was like we hiked and it was like 83, and

we're lightweights. We have-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … I, I had to stop. My buddy was-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … having a rough time. But Joni and Sarah trudged on-

Bethany Cseh: Did it

Scott Hammond: … ever stalwart.

Bethany Cseh: Nice.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, it was fun. It's beautiful back there.

Well, cool. Uh, how do you, um, give back to Humboldt?

Bethany Cseh: How do I give back to Humboldt?

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Besides being a-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … an amazing friend, and a shepherd, and a

connector-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and a relationship person, what, um, how do you

give back?

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Uh, I,

a few ways. Um, I am on with, uh, the Justice for Josiah Lawson group.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: So I work with a number of people in Humboldt County trying to work

for-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … David Josiah Lawson, who was murdered at a Arcata house party,

few years ago. And yeah, so I work with, uh, Charmaine Lawson-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … and she comes up here almost every month

vigil for her son-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … and to remind this community that,

that her son will not be forgotten about until we get justice-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … or not forgotten at all. Um,

and I, I, as a pastor, we do a lot of food things for people in need. Um-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … at the Arc- Arcata United Methodist Church,

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … Sundays, every Sunday.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

Bethany Cseh: Um, and it's a really important ministry

Um, and sometimes I get to write for the Lost Coast Outpost. I do a little faith column. It's been a long time since I've written

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … but I'd like to start doing that again

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: …

uh, being available for people, I think, is one of the things that I feel really-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … really called to.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Um, like a, a non-judgmental

presence where people can have their questions about faith, about Jesus, about the church, about, um, if anything matters, if, if there is anything to believe in anymore, uh, with their skepticism

and, um, all of it. Like, I just-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm. Doubt.

Bethany Cseh: If-

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: … all their doubt. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. I, I think that,

um, I think the more that we can have honest conversations

people-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … I think is important.

Scott Hammond: I like it.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Safe place to be doubtful.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, exactly.

Scott Hammond: Come on in, Thomas. We've been waiting for you. Come

Bethany Cseh: That's right. [laughs] Peace be with you.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. So tell, tell me what you see for

the future of Humboldt. What do you, what, what, what do you see? What do you like? What do you,

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: What keeps you up at night? What do you see for this place in 5 to 10

Bethany Cseh: I have a lot of hope for this place.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Um, I have a lot of hope for what we can

to become.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: I think this community is really good at showing up for each

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: I'm really proud of how we do that. Um, I think that

there's a lot that gets overlooked, though. A lot of people get overlooked-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … and dehumanized.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And I think we can do a better job-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … as, as a community-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … in showing up for the good of those who

who are forgotten about. Um, I think, I think that our mental health system-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … is really broken here.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And I know that there's a lot of amazing people doing

system, and they are working themselves to the

exhausted.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: They need a sabbatical.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: So I, what I hope is not to see more burnout.

What I hope is to see more resources so we can hire more people-

Scott Hammond: Right

Bethany Cseh: … to meet the needs in this area.

My, my son struggles with it. My husband struggles with it, and we just need more-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … help, more compassion-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … for people who are struggling.

Scott Hammond: There's been a thread in the podcast here.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah?

Scott Hammond: One is we live in the medical desert.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So what do you wanna do about that? What are we-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … gonna do about that? And not at just people with money or

business people or government pe- How do we all, uh, chip in and make that a reality, bring doctors-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and specialists and mental health specialists to Humboldt-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … to stay for 5 or 10 or 20 years, and to minister

their magic-

Bethany Cseh: Totally

Scott Hammond: … and do their thing. Um, the other thing we haven't talked about

which-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … has just come up like [laughs] …

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, I've noticed-

Scott Hammond: Like when you-

Bethany Cseh: … in your podcast a number of times it's

Scott Hammond: … like bringing it up. [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: There's… I, I don't know, uh, even to make segue,

that-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … hey, that's out there, too, and they're-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … they're overlooked, right?

Bethany Cseh: Absolutely.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Folks, folks that suffer on that level.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Um,

so-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, my, my son's on the spectrum and-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … it, and there's, there are resources, um-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … for

people, and it's just, it takes a lot of advocating on the part. And a lot of parents are-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … so exhausted-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … um, with it day in and day out-

Scott Hammond: [clears throat] Oh, yeah

Bethany Cseh: … yeah, that it's hard to even know how to

look for resources and-

Scott Hammond: Right

Bethany Cseh: … um, and that's, that's really hard.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: It's really hard.

Scott Hammond: That advocating is not taught-

Bethany Cseh: No

Scott Hammond: … very, by very many.

There's a few, some exceptions, but-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … so, um,

it's many years from now, we're walking to your gravesite in Blue

Bethany Cseh: Okay.

Scott Hammond: And on your gravestone,

besides all the dates and your name and everything, maybe-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … that embellished picture or something,

What's that quote?

Bethany Cseh: [laughs] Um,

"She loved well."

Scott Hammond: Wow. Powerful. Good. I like it.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: I like it.

Bethany Cseh: What would be, what would be on yours, Scott?

Scott Hammond: Um, oh, I had it. "Return to joy."

Bethany Cseh: Mm.

Scott Hammond: [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Wait, "He's returned to joy." [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Oh, I love that.

Scott Hammond: Um, yeah, that's, uh,

from our, uh, Dallas Willard-

Bethany Cseh: Mm

Scott Hammond: … friend. Steve Darnell turned us on to this book,

principles of, of good leadership is returning to joy.

Bethany Cseh: Mm-hmm.

Scott Hammond: Keeping relationships intact and that the envelope of a relationship

intact-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … 'cause it can handle other things.

And enduring hardship well, which we're being thrust into,

uh-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … by virtue of some of the things we talked

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Um,

what else, what, what else would you like to add? Your,

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: You're the host.

Tess.

Bethany Cseh: Um,

yeah. What, what would you wanna see in this county-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Bethany Cseh: … changed or-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … or become better?

How would you wanna see it?

Scott Hammond: I

… Hmm, that's a good question. I think there's so much division, and it turns into trite BS-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and, and, and political jockeying and, and emotional

and, and it's s- I'd like to see that cut through and get to the core of what people, who people really are and see them connect.

Uh-

Bethany Cseh: How do you think that could happen?

Scott Hammond: I don't know.

Bethany Cseh: Okay. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: I know what I want. I just don't know how-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … to get, get that. And, you know, you could say peace

Humboldt peace, and I don't, I don't know. I, and I don't think you're gonna meet all SoHum's different from Hoopa, different from Trinidad.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Uh, Nor- Northern Humboldt. So it's like there's,

you know, how do you … And th- this has come up, so education,

medicine, trails, jobs.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Housing. Hey, how about housing right now?

Uh, and I don't know how it's … You know, Joni and I how does it all start? And how did, how do you meet every one of those needs? And I don't think you do. I, I think there's limited resources. It's America. We're loaded with money.

Bethany Cseh: Mm.

Scott Hammond: But that doesn't mean that every need gets met.

Bethany Cseh: Mm-hmm.

Scott Hammond: Um, and sadly not very well sometimes.

But, uh, so that, that's … How do you meet all the needs? That, that'd be

… And then end division.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And I don't know how that's done 'cause we're not …

We've thrown money at homelessness for a long time, and people still like to camp and-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … have a bucket, you know-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and hang out. So I don't, um … Above my pay grade.

Bethany Cseh: Mm.

Scott Hammond: And I'm not the master of the universe, it turns out.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: But I c-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … but I'm a really good critic,

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … truly well, sadly well. But, um, yeah, I'd like to

maybe play my position-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … and do well. And whatever those connections are

that are one-to-one and make that difference.

Bethany Cseh: That's good.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: I love that.

Scott Hammond: It's hard to do.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. I think that there's, there's a, like, a savior complex

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … a lot of Americans hold onto that,

um, i- it, the, it's easy to feel overwhelmed with-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … the amount of need when we believe that we're the ones

meet the need. Or if, like, "If I don't do this,

Scott Hammond: Right.

Bethany Cseh: Um,

but the, the problem so often that I've seen within every realm, not just, like, the business sector or the political sol- even the religious, it's there's this level of competition that we have-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … that keeps people from feeling connected.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: And so i- there's, it's like we, we arrive into a room,

into a Rotary space or Toastmasters or a church building or whatever it is, that we're trying to, like, and community.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And oftentimes people arrive with this sense of superiority-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … or that I've got nothing to receive.

I just, I, I'm the best in this room or whatever.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Bethany Cseh: This, this competition. And so we, we come with, like,

ruffled, and, um, you know, it's like, "Well, what do you do?" "Oh, well, you do?" "Well, I do this." And-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … uh, like, one-upping each other-

Scott Hammond: Right

Bethany Cseh: … instead of just being aware of our

brokenness, of our need for each other-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … and that without each other,

Scott Hammond: And getting curious.

Bethany Cseh: Get curious.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And, and its ugly cousin, which is the other folks

and un- unwilling to, to connect-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … 'cause they're,

whatever, feeling unworthy or-

Bethany Cseh: Yep

Scott Hammond: … "I'm a horrible person, and I just-

Bethany Cseh: Yep

Scott Hammond: … I'm not … I'm, I'm another poser

meeting. I don't know what I'm doing here."

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Or, or whatever it is. And I think that's

equally sad.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, yeah. The-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … we, we try to mask our insecurities and-

Scott Hammond: I like that lose, losing the competition thing.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Interesting. I've known a lot of businesspeople

Bethany Cseh: Mm-hmm.

Scott Hammond: And as they got successful, they've lost the competition thing,

connectors now.

Bethany Cseh: Huh.

Scott Hammond: So how do we-

Bethany Cseh: That's great

Scott Hammond: … how can we get them a little connecting a

[laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: When it wasn't vicious and cannibalistic and-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … narcissistic and crazy, so.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Um-

Bethany Cseh: Brene Brown talks a lot about scarcity and how-

Scott Hammond: Right

Bethany Cseh: … there's this belief that there's only so much.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: So many resources, so much of this pie, and if I don't get my

share, then I'm gonna lose out, instead of seeing it as like-

Scott Hammond: Right

Bethany Cseh: … "Oh, no, this is … There is more than enough.

There's an endless-"

Scott Hammond: And the logical response is super competitive-

Bethany Cseh: Totally

Scott Hammond: … vicious.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, taking, grabbing, controlling, manipulating-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … to stay ahead. And-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … oftentimes the people that are hurt the most

doing it, 'cause obviously they're getting hurt too,

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … of vulnerable people out there that are-

Scott Hammond: Yeah, so-

Bethany Cseh: … overlooked.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Mm.

Bethany Cseh: Not like we're gonna solve it today on this podcast, but-

Scott Hammond: I think identifying it's a great-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … step.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah, I agree.

Scott Hammond: So, uh, last question about the new book.

Bethany Cseh: Okay.

Scott Hammond: Um, tell us more.

Bethany Cseh: Oh.

Scott Hammond: What's your vision for-

Bethany Cseh: Not even close to [laughs]

Scott Hammond: What's your vision for your book?

Bethany Cseh: Okay. Uh, I started this book a long time ago.

I just decided to pick it back up.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: Um, it's, uh, on adoption. Um,

and, you know, my kids are adopted, and I was able to utilize the, to be a part of the foster care system,

and-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … um, but w- the, the writer Paul in

the Bible, he used the language of adoption quite

often-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … to describe this relationship

beings in this vast family of God. And-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … for us today, we could think of it as like, oh, well,

yeah, we just, here's a baby there, there's a baby there.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: But for the people back then, it meant a lot more

because-Roman adoption was, um, it was very much about power plays and who gets to get ahead. And, um, so for Paul to use this language of adoption to a people that had no power would've been

really, uh, mind-blowing.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

Bethany Cseh: So I, I do a lot of, like, historical stuff about-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … what was happening during that time,

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: And then I share a little bit of my own story, and then, um,

what it means to be a beloved child of God, to know that you are, more than anything else in this entire world, that you are loved-

Scott Hammond: Right

Bethany Cseh: … that you are worthy of love-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … and that you are loved.

Scott Hammond: Forgiven.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Accepted. Justified. Hey, made complete.

Bethany Cseh: Made complete.

Scott Hammond: How's that… Somebody said-

Bethany Cseh: So-

Scott Hammond: … "How's that a bad deal?"

Bethany Cseh: [laughs] I know.

Scott Hammond: [laughs] It's the, it's the best deal in the universe, folks.

Bethany Cseh: It just-

Scott Hammond: It's crazy

Bethany Cseh: … takes a lot for us to receive the truth of

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … 'cause there's so many things

that.

Scott Hammond: I'm curious about those things.

Bethany Cseh: Mm-hmm.

Scott Hammond: Those are another podcast, but-

Bethany Cseh: Sure

Scott Hammond: … those things that get in the way of that, it's, like,

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … weird,

"Yeah, I'm, I'm just horrible, and I, I don't wanna talk about it anymore."

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And it's like, oh, well, it,

that's not very curious of you. [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, that belovedness, so. Yeah, and adoption.

So as an adopted child, I have all the rights of the blood child.

Bethany Cseh: Right.

Scott Hammond: Right?

Bethany Cseh: Right. More, more so in, in the Roman culture.

Scott Hammond: Oh, tell, tell me more.

Bethany Cseh: Oh. Um, yeah. So if you were adopted as

a, a… So in the Roman culture, if you were adopted, it was, like, a, again, gain power.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: So Caesar Augustus was adopted, and, you know, it's,

If, if a person in power and economic means didn't have a, an heir-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … who could

continue forth the family line, then they would then adopt a, a person from another family-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Bethany Cseh: … in, in a, in a similar, uh, economic status-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … sociostatus. So they wouldn't choose some

random kid that didn't have a family that was an orphan.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Cseh: They would actually ask their friends' kids-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … or their friends, you know, who have s- a few extra sons.

Scott Hammond: Who they knew they could-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … I don't wanna say groom, but manipulate or-

Bethany Cseh: No, but yeah, yeah, to, to-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … be, uh, their son and take on the family name.

Scott Hammond: Right.

Bethany Cseh: So usually it was something that, uh,

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … or people that, that, d- children who had already passed

the, um… if they were having, gonna have any kind of, like, failure to thrive or something-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … to make sure that this kid would then-

Scott Hammond: Huh

Bethany Cseh: … live and be healthy and to be able to bear this family name-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Bethany Cseh: … even better than, than the father.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: So it was, it was something that

The father would choose the son-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … and get permission from that family.

The son would then have to choose that father-

Scott Hammond: Wow

Bethany Cseh: … back, and it would be a public experience.

They would have to go to the town square. Um, and once that kid then was adopted by this new family, they would gain a new name, a new social status-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … a, a new inheritance. Um, uh, the old was gone,

and they were totally this new person-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … in this new family. Uh, and then, the, but so, so for people

in, um, people in the church, they would never be the ones that would be chosen for adoption-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … because they weren't people of means.

They-

Scott Hammond: Oh

Bethany Cseh: … they wouldn't be-

Scott Hammond: I see

Bethany Cseh: … the successful person that could carry on.

Scott Hammond: It's an elitist practice.

Bethany Cseh: It's an elitist practice.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Okay. Got it.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And so-

Bethany Cseh: So for Paul to use that language, um, to say that-

Scott Hammond: Pretty, pretty radical

Bethany Cseh: … that the, yeah, the Father in heaven wants to adopt you-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … thinks that you, you, you know, person that have, has no

means, no, um-

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … uh, who might be disabled, who, uh,

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … um, who's a slave-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … all of these things that,

uh, make them so they're absolutely

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … the Father wants to adopt you 'cause the

Scott Hammond: Mm

Bethany Cseh: … that you are worthy-

Scott Hammond: I like it

Bethany Cseh: … to carry on that family name.

Scott Hammond: I like it.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Like all of, all of us broken, shady-

Bethany Cseh: I know.

Messed up

Scott Hammond: … goo- goofy-

Bethany Cseh: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … addicted.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. [laughs]

Scott Hammond: Yeah. There's a family.

Bethany Cseh: Yep.

Scott Hammond: There's a father. I love it.

Bethany Cseh: Mm-hmm.

Scott Hammond: Um, any parting shots before we go?

Bethany Cseh: Parting shots?

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Uh, I don't know.

Scott Hammond: When's the book coming out? Uh, I'll say-

Bethany Cseh: Oh, gosh. I have no idea.

Scott Hammond: Next year.

Bethany Cseh: I'm… Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Let's say next year.

Scott Hammond: Gotta get through the sabbatical.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah. Gotta get through the sabbatical-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

Bethany Cseh: … and then, um,

we'll see. Uh, we'll see if I can get it published or-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

Bethany Cseh: … if I can't, then I'll self-publish, which is fine.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: It works.

Scott Hammond: Easier all the time.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: You know, it's funny with AI now, it's like it's,

people.

Bethany Cseh: I know.

Scott Hammond: It's crazy. [laughs]

Bethany Cseh: I know. There's a lot of, uh, interesting,

I don't know, um, ethical dilemmas there that-

Scott Hammond: It, it is interesting, yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So.

Bethany Cseh: I think we're meant to wrestle with that.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Well, um, with that, gosh, I hate to say goodbye. This has been fun.

Bethany Cseh: [laughs]

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

Bethany Cseh: Thanks, Scott.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. No, thanks for being here, and, um,

Bethany Cseh: I will.

Scott Hammond: And, uh, we'd love to have you back.

Bethany Cseh: Thanks. Anytime.

Scott Hammond: Appre- yeah, appreciate you. Thanks, Bethany.

Bethany Cseh: You're welcome.