Episode 10 · Michael Kraft · July 31, 2023
Michael Kraft brings a steady, practical voice to Humboldt’s big questions: why he came here, what keeps him here, and what the county needs to grow without losing itself. The conversation moves from climate and community to housing, economic development, and the cannabis industry’s complicated path from underground to licensed business.
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What this episode covers
- Michael’s route to Humboldt, from Wisconsin and Southern California to Colorado and then Eureka.
- Why he and his wife Tish chose Humboldt for its weather, redwoods, ocean, and quieter pace.
- His early years as a bright but unmotivated kid, and the turn toward college, work, and growing up.
- His work in higher education, the Small Business Development Center, and local economic development.
- Humboldt’s strengths and challenges, including housing, infrastructure, culture, and new projects like offshore wind.
- The origins of Papa & Barkley, the realities of cannabis regulation, and what legal weed has and has not changed.
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Transcript
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Scott Hammond: Hey, folks. Welcome Michael Kraft.
Michael Kraft: I'm happy to be here, Scott.
Scott Hammond: It's so good to see you. I like your Hawaiian deal, man.
And I'm, like, layered for Humboldt.
Michael Kraft: Yeah, this is as summery as it gets today in
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … uh, as I was telling Nick,
brought out my old guy ugly shirt for the occasion.
Scott Hammond: Not bad. Yeah, not bad. So it's a, it's a raging 62 degrees right
now with a breeze.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: And we're the envy of Redding [laughs] .
Michael Kraft: It… Oh, we're the envy of everywhere, baby.
Scott Hammond: Of everywhere. Yeah, it's, it's amazing we're not the size of Redding
weather, superior weather as far as I'm concerned.
Michael Kraft: Yeah. You know, it's interesting,
I, I never thought I would live to see the when climate refugees were a thing in the US.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: But my doctor
and a close colleague, two different people, both came here-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … 'cause they were burned out of places near Redding-
Scott Hammond: Really?
Michael Kraft: … and relocated for housing
Scott Hammond: Burned out in terms of just the weather, the heat?
Michael Kraft: Uh, no, literally-
Scott Hammond: Oh
Michael Kraft: … fires.
Scott Hammond: Fires.
Michael Kraft: Um-
Scott Hammond: That kind of burn
Michael Kraft: … but obviously stuff that, you know, in those big, like…
One of them was the Carr Fire.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: So record-breaking at the time, and-
Scott Hammond: Oh, yeah
Michael Kraft: … fires that when you and I were kids in Southern California,
fires like that.
Scott Hammond: No. I, I remember one morning in, um,
Diego is where I was growing up. I was 15 or… But the whole, uh… It was kinda like it
ago.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: The whole thing turned orange, and it was just like my shirt.
And, and I went down to the swap meet and I bought, um, Jimi Hendrix Are You Experienced album. It's vinyl. It's this weird thing that you put on a
turntable.
Michael Kraft: Yeah, I remem-
Scott Hammond: I remember-
Michael Kraft: Just remember.
Scott Hammond: I remember buying that record going,
[laughs] I wonder what's burning."
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: And it was all of, uh, East San Diego County. So, uh, anyway,
Michael Kraft: So I digress-
Scott Hammond: Welcome to the program
Michael Kraft: … but yes, uh, we should be the climate envy of the world
Scott Hammond: Yeah. So tell us about your journey to Humboldt
how you got here, and, and Tish, your wife, and-
Michael Kraft: All right.
Uh, I was born in Wisconsin, but my father is a Southern California native, and we moved back to Orange County when I was three and a half. Did my kinda grade school years there.
Scott Hammond: Hm.
Michael Kraft: Moved out to the Inland Empire,
high school, college at UCR.
And, uh-
Scott Hammond: That's Riverside for you folks that are-
Michael Kraft: UC Riverside, yes.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Good school, right?
Michael Kraft: Highlanders.
Uh, better now.
Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.
Michael Kraft: Pretty good then.
Scott Hammond: Okay.
Michael Kraft: And so-
Scott Hammond: And they're the Highlanders?
Michael Kraft: Yeah. It's like Scottish dudes.
Scott Hammond: So they're not the Anteaters like Santa Cruz [laughs] or-
Michael Kraft: No.
Scott Hammond: Wait, I'm sorry. That's Irvine. [laughs]
Michael Kraft: No slugs, no Bulldogs, no Tigers, no.
Scott Hammond: Santa Cruz is slugs.
Michael Kraft: Guys in kilts.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. [laughs]
Michael Kraft: Uh, [laughs] but so as tends to happen, you know,
from school and stayed down there for quite a while. I met my wife during college. Um, and
so at one point I took a job in northern Colorado.
Scott Hammond: Hm.
Michael Kraft: Was there for five years.
And the employer that brought me to northern Colorado, uh, whom I had, uh, subsequently left, wanted me to come back, but to a job in, in California.
Scott Hammond: Hm.
Michael Kraft: And we negotiated about where that was-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … 'cause I wasn't interested in going back
urban areas.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And we compromised on Humboldt.
Scott Hammond: Nice.
Michael Kraft: And so I, uh, took that job for just a year, so one-year
contract. And then we struggled to stay for a year, and then Tish got a job that was very part-time, but they very quickly brought her to full-time. She still has that job 15 years later-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … or more. Um, and I got a job within a few weeks
of that at the Small Business Development Center that I had for seven and a half
years-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … where you and I met.
Scott Hammond: Yep.
Michael Kraft: And then, uh, from there I went to Sequoia Personnel for
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And, uh, was recruited while there to go to work at, uh, Papen
Barkley, the cannabis manufacturer.
Scott Hammond: And what do you do there?
Michael Kraft: So I,
I joke that I have two titles and six hats.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: But my c- core work is around regulatory compliance.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, so it, it's sort of ironic to be in an industry
illegal at the federal level-
Scott Hammond: Right
Michael Kraft: … and be charged with one f- with, you know,
rules."
Scott Hammond: Right. [laughs]
Michael Kraft: And so-
Scott Hammond: The State of California's good at that.
The-
Michael Kraft: We're, we're… [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Produced a lot of rules for you real quick.
Michael Kraft: We, we, we have a thick, thick rule book that we work to.
So, yeah, I, as, as many people, uh, y- know, the cannabis industry is extremely highly regulated.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, you know, if there was,
uh, sense to all of this, I wouldn't probably have a job because they, they shouldn't need me. But the… So I do a lot of legal, um, quasi-legal. I'm not an attorney, but, um, you know, a lot of regulatory interpretation. A- I do mock audits, like I'm an inspector from the state-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … and try to catch people doing stuff.
I don't catch them doing bad stuff.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, but I also do some other things in risk
It's not very exciting, but it's necessary.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: I'm also sort of the designated adult when it comes
to interacting with the mainstream Humboldt business community.
I'm-
Scott Hammond: Okay
Michael Kraft: … um, involved with the Eureka Chamber of
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: I'm the liaison to the police department.
So, you know, there's-
Scott Hammond: Nice
Michael Kraft: … there's some stuff like that.
Scott Hammond: That's a lot of… bunch of hats.
Toastmaster friend, Michael.
Michael Kraft: Uh, I like it. I-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … and something that I really enjoy, um, I did supervision
for over two decades. Uh, kind of feel like I paid my dues there.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: So I'm a, a member of the leadership team without
anybody report to me, and-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Kraft: … that is a sweet spot to be.
Scott Hammond: That's pretty nice. Yeah, so you have a-
Michael Kraft: Yeah
Scott Hammond: … you have a chair at the table.
Michael Kraft: Sort of.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Yeah. I at least have a voice.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.No, great company, great product. Uh, stand up in every way.
I wanna… So a little bit more about you. So, uh, you were drawn here 'cause you and Tish visited once?
Michael Kraft: Yeah. Um, good memory. The-
we were either just married or just about to be married. We're not positive of this, but-
Scott Hammond: [laughs] It's hard to say
Michael Kraft: … she has family in Portland, and we
we picked here to spend a couple of extra days and just kinda rest on, among the driving, and we loved it.
Scott Hammond: [clears throat]
Michael Kraft: Uh, we loved the vibe. We loved the quasi-rural nature
of it.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, w- we really liked the amount of culture
Scott Hammond: Wow. Yeah.
Michael Kraft: And, uh, the redwoods meeting the oceans-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … was just magical to me. It still is.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Kraft: Like, I will go to my grave and,
elk by the highway, you know?
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: That's just such a-
Scott Hammond: People pulled over [laughs]
Michael Kraft: … such a beautiful thing to me.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Yeah. I- them I could do without.
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Kraft: … pulled up, pulled off halfway on the shoulder-
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Kraft: … taking photos of the elk, you know.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: May they rot, but-
Scott Hammond: May they… Yeah
Michael Kraft: … but I still love the elk.
Scott Hammond: We're-
Michael Kraft: I don't blame the elk for those people
Scott Hammond: … quick story. We were at Orick,
right in front of us. We're going 55, and-
Michael Kraft: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: … there's somebody stopped. I'm going, "Oh, man."
Michael Kraft: That's great.
Scott Hammond: "What is even… What…" You know,
it-
Michael Kraft: It's gotta be a weekly event, right?
Somebody does that every week of every year.
Scott Hammond: There must be a lot of rear, you know, rear-end-
Michael Kraft: Yeah
Scott Hammond: … accidents. Anyway, so, so who was Michael at 15?
You were in, were you in Wisconsin still?
Michael Kraft: Uh, no. I, we were in, um-
Scott Hammond: Orange County
Michael Kraft: … Riverside-
Scott Hammond: Okay
Michael Kraft: … by then, so the s- hot and smoggy Inland Empire.
And I was, you know, a bright but unmotivated kid.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Kind of a stoner.
Scott Hammond: Yep.
Michael Kraft: Um-
Scott Hammond: Hey, who wasn't, man? Come on.
Michael Kraft: Yeah, and, and I spent… You know, there was, like,
that wasn't the case.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: But,
um, yeah, I, I drank a lot starting at 14. Um, dabbled in other stuff, including weed, and… But I, I was kind of a hit-and-miss student-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … um, depending on w- whether something interested me or not.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Kraft: And, uh,
I had great friends.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Hey, it's all about… [laughs] At 15, it's kind of all about the friends. So wh- what hap- So what happened? You, you made it to 20.
Um-
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Kraft: Funny about that because somewhere between 14 and
20, or 15 and 20, my mom said to me, and she's a dear church lady. She's a very nice person. She said, "If you live to 26, you're gonna live forever,
odds."
Scott Hammond: Ah. [laughs]
Michael Kraft: [laughs] So-
Scott Hammond: That's a backhanded compliment. [laughs]
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Wait.
Michael Kraft: My parents have given me a few of those.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: But, uh-
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Kraft: … you know, at, at 18, I qualified for UCR on
my test scores.
Scott Hammond: Mm.
Michael Kraft: I had terrible… I didn't have terrible grades.
But, you know, certainly for, certainly the mark of an underachiever.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Um, I mean, legally UC had to take me-
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Kraft: … basically, and the, the-
Scott Hammond: They needed the money [laughs]
Michael Kraft: … armpit of the,
the armpit of the system at that time happened to be UC Riverside, the only one I was applying to anyway.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: So, but once I got to, to college, I was
doing it… I went there because I chose to, right?
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: I didn't have to.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And I
had a lot of stuff that I was interested in,
student.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, and, you know,
I just grew up.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Stuff happens, and I got older.
Scott Hammond: I like that. My, my dad used to say, uh, 'cause I
overweight growing up, and he would say, "Wanda, just let the kid grow up." And, and it's like now that's my mantra at home and with, with, in my marriage.
Michael Kraft: Uh-huh.
Scott Hammond: "Joni, just let me grow up." [laughs]
Michael Kraft: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: "I'm, I'm still developing, honey."
Michael Kraft: So-
Scott Hammond: "I love you."
Michael Kraft: … did you allow that of all of those kids of yours, or
Scott?
Scott Hammond: Well-
Michael Kraft: Scott's the one that gets the license to grow up
Scott Hammond: … it, it's… Yeah, no, it's, it is…
I go, "It's, um… I'm really confident that your son's gonna turn out great. He's a mess right now, and we all know it, and you see it, and you feel terrible. But I see him turning out great. My son, however, it's, it's gonna be close."
[laughs] If, if he graduates, if he makes it to 26, you know, it's whatever. And I, I go… So it's funny, with those closest to us, we don't really get a perspective, and that's why we have community
Michael Kraft: Yeah
Scott Hammond: … to go, "Hey. Hey, that's, that's gonna work out fine."
Michael Kraft: You always need somebody outside of your own head to bounce some
off of.
Scott Hammond: That's a huge amen. So, uh, 20, you're in college.
Did, did I have this right? Did you go to Harvey Mudd schools, or did your father teach there?
Michael Kraft: Um, I worked-
Scott Hammond: Or you had a connection
Michael Kraft: … I worked there.
Scott Hammond: Okay.
Michael Kraft: Uh, so to…
I graduated from UCR with a double major-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … one of them in business. I worked at a defense contractor for a few
years, and then I went on for my MBA at the
Scott Hammond: Okay
Michael Kraft: … Graduate University.
And, um, when I finished, I ended up staying to, uh, as associate program director and then program director-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Kraft: … of the MBA program I graduated from,
first got into higher ed, which I, uh, higher ed administration-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … which I was in for 15 years, so.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Kraft: The defense industry was sort of my first job after college,
consider that 15 years in higher ed my first career.
Scott Hammond: Okay.
Michael Kraft: Um, and, and that career ended,
kinda ended, when I went to the Small Business I mean, there are people-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … who consider that an educational program as well,
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Kraft: … a lot of skills transferred, but, but, um,
am I glad that I wasn't in higher ed during COVID.
Scott Hammond: Oh my gosh.
Michael Kraft: Those poor people.
Scott Hammond: Souls. Yeah, poor souls.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: So what'd you do at SP- SBDC?
Michael Kraft: Um, I was… So a little bit uniquely for
the SBDC, SBDC stands for Small Business Development program of the Small Business Administration, a federal program.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um-
Scott Hammond: Is it funded by the state as well, or is it all fed?
Michael Kraft: It's generally matched by state funds.
Scott Hammond: Okay.
Michael Kraft: And, uh, so state grant funds or other kinds.
And it, it varies from state to state how
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, and California has gotten somewhat better
at supporting the SBDCs directly. But, uh, so the, the two hats that I wore there was director of the nonprofit that hosted the program, which fairly unique. Most of the centers are at, um, colleges and universities.
Scott Hammond: I see.
Michael Kraft: And in fact, the North Coast one
Um-
Scott Hammond: You mean, uh, Cal Poly?
[laughs]
Michael Kraft: Son of a gun. Yes.
Scott Hammond: [laughs] God.
Michael Kraft: Cal Poly Humboldt.
Scott Hammond: Gotcha. [laughs]
Michael Kraft: Oh. [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Got him. Got the Cal Poly.
Everybody does that, and then there's the correction. "You mean Cal Poly."
Michael Kraft: I do mean Cal Poly. So they're host-
Scott Hammond: They did a good job rebranding.
Michael Kraft: Yeah. Um, they've done, done a good job.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: And so, uh, but I was director of the program.
Uh, and so there was, you know, half a dozen staff-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … and couple dozen contractors-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … that worked on that. Um, and we, we helped small
businesses kinda start and do business planning, access-
Scott Hammond: Right
Michael Kraft: … financing and that kinda thing in both Humboldt
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Kraft: And then, uh, I was the executive director of the
it.
Scott Hammond: Okay.
So you guys probably launched a few that, in that era.
Michael Kraft: A few businesses?
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Um, so
definitely all we did was help.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: But, um-
Scott Hammond: Is Holly Yashi in there?
Michael Kraft: But we helped a lot.
Scott Hammond: Or is that… That… Holly Yashi predates you guys probably.
Michael Kraft: That pr- that predates.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Um,
a number of the Humboldt Made folks-
Scott Hammond: Okay
Michael Kraft: … that you think of now, uh, and, and t- technically this is
confidential, so I'm not gonna say who they were.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Kraft: But, um, but I will say that m- one of my favorite
things with the Humboldt Made crew was, um, somebody had this idea, I wish it had been my idea, but to take a group of these brand new like food
businesses-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … that were trying to do value added stuff,
in San Francisco.
Scott Hammond: Oh, yeah.
Michael Kraft: Walk them around, show them how it's done.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: You know, what the b- what the state of the art is, and
then have them, at least some of those folks prepare to be next year. And one of your previous guests,
Scott Hammond: Oh
Michael Kraft: … and Cypress Grove,
uh, were really important to that, 'cause they were really the ones who did workshops, you know.
Scott Hammond: Ah.
Michael Kraft: I, I put them together, but Mary and her staff were the ones
who said, "Okay, this is, this is what this is like."
Scott Hammond: We'll teach these guys.
Michael Kraft: "This is how we do it at Cypress Grove."
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: "This is how you organize for a trade show.
This is the kind of booth you need."
Scott Hammond: Ah.
Michael Kraft: "This is the investment you need to prepare to make." And then,
you know, there were two vans of businesses. I literally drove one of the vans, and we went down, spent a couple of days-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Kraft: … and came back. And, uh, it was…
I, I had done the work to get the money to do
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, got a grant from the Headwaters Fund to be
And so some of those businesses that are, let's say, nearby here in Myrtletown, uh, were-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Kraft: … involved with that.
Scott Hammond: Okay, cool. Yeah, I r- um,
she mentioned that in talking to her that it's a h- is it 100 miles of booths? She… Some big number.
Michael Kraft: It's-
Scott Hammond: It's just a huge show.
Michael Kraft: It's a huge show. You, you-
Scott Hammond: What's it called, the Fancy Foods?
Michael Kraft: Uh-
Scott Hammond: Something
Michael Kraft: … just blew out of my head.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: But it's one of the two major-
Scott Hammond: You said it here
Michael Kraft: … two or three major shows in the w-
Scott Hammond: Is there samples like Costco?
Michael Kraft: Uh, absolutely.
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Kraft: Absolutely. But they're all, you know-
Scott Hammond: Steer away
Michael Kraft: … they're like groovy, organic, fancy.
Scott Hammond: Right. Come hungry, though.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun.
Yeah, and that's where we met 'cause you'd, uh, Well, the, the group hosted the Toastmasters meeting, the 12 o- the 12 o'clock on Thursdays, and then you joined.
Michael Kraft: Yeah. We, um…
That wasn't actually the Small Business Development Center hosting. It was, uh, renting from Redwood Region Economic Development Commission who were the-
Scott Hammond: Also there
Michael Kraft: … major tenant of the, the building.
Scott Hammond: Gotcha.
Michael Kraft: Uh, and but yeah, uh, so Toastmasters was
a great experience.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: I'm not involved anymore, but-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … probably was for eight or 10 years.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, you were further… Wow.
Michael Kraft: I went all the way to Eagle Scout, so it's the-
Scott Hammond: That's good
Michael Kraft: … probably the first and only significant
educational thing I did since I finished my master's.
Scott Hammond: Did you get the DTM, the Distinguished?
Michael Kraft: I did.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Chops, that's not easy, 'cause you have to do something special to Don't you have to conduct a-
Michael Kraft: There's a capstone requirement
Scott Hammond: … thing. Yeah, you gotta write a thesis.
Michael Kraft: And I still, I actually, with the capstone, it's,
thesis committee. You're required to have a committee of
guide you.
Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.
Michael Kraft: And the three people who did that are still friends
every month and have a couple drinks with.
Scott Hammond: What the… Huh.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Can't name names.
Michael Kraft: Peter, Peter German-
Scott Hammond: Yeah. [laughs]
Michael Kraft: … Susan Seaman, and Lynette Mullen.
Scott Hammond: There you go.
Michael Kraft: So.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. No, the… She's… Is Susan still our mayor?
Michael Kraft: Uh, no. She only served-
Scott Hammond: She stepped down
Michael Kraft: … she served the one four-year term.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Uh, and as of the beginning of this year,
Scott Hammond: Gotcha, okay. Gotcha. So, uh-
Michael Kraft: Okay. I'm a lousy podcast g-guest 'cause this
knocked the mic, so I'm, I'm hoping that's-
Scott Hammond: It's okay
Michael Kraft: … not coming out in the audio.
Scott Hammond: You could-
Michael Kraft: But if it is, I just explained what those bumps are.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, hit it a few times. Yeah, that's all right.
So, um, what do you see, 'cause you have this economic development portfolio and HR and, and-
Michael Kraft: Mm
Scott Hammond: … job development,
uh, what do you s-see as the kind of the SWOT, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities for Humboldt as a county? What, what are our challenges? What do you see coming around the pike, and how do we meet those? And…
Michael Kraft: It's a great time to ask that question.
So first, I would say the headline is of the things that are on our m- near term, midterm, and like 10-year
horizon-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: Any one of four things that are quite significant that are
happening now would've been considered huge 10 years ago.
Scott Hammond: Really big, yeah.
Michael Kraft: You think about Nordic Aquafarms,
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … and of the two different, two or three different pieces of that.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Uh, you know, actually making the stuff, which
do.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Running the windmills offshore,
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And then if you wanna count this, you know,
how does the power get out of Humboldt, 'cause we can't use-
Scott Hammond: That much power
Michael Kraft: … anywhere close to all of that.
Scott Hammond: It's gonna generate that much power?
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Kraft: Um, I, I… Don't quote me on this,
10% maybe would, would power all of Humboldt, of what's
planned-
Scott Hammond: Oh, wow
Michael Kraft: … to go in this lease out there.
wind.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Kraft: Cal Poly.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Uh, the expansion to Cal Poly-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … is huge, and obviously happens, and is, is
happening.
Scott Hammond: Needs housing.
Michael Kraft: Um, it needs lots of stuff, but housing is a real-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … uh, w- we didn't talk about this,
commission for Eureka now.
Scott Hammond: Oh, okay.
Michael Kraft: And, um, housing will be a continuing, uh,
deal for us. So I mean, from, uh… I guess, I guess I started with o- those are the opportunities-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … that are pretty large. I think all of those, the community should
have the right to mold. I also hope we don't love them to death.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: And I've challenged friends to see the forest for the trees-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Kraft: … and say, you know,
"If you buy that fossil fuels are bu- are frying the planet," and I do-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … then
I don't really care if that power comes onshore in Humboldt and we actually plug into it or if they run the line under the ocean all the way down to San
Francisco.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Let smart people figure that out.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: But we're certainly doing our bit-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … and we're gonna reap lots of economic
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Kraft: Like, if, if, if the Port of Humboldt
can serve the leases that are likely to come off of Brookings and Crescent City, as well as
ours-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … and maybe even as far south as Morro Bay.
There's a thought-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Kraft: … that they, that at least for the major stuff they can
Scott Hammond: When you say leases-
Michael Kraft: All-
Scott Hammond: … the offshore wind-
Michael Kraft: Offshore wind leases
Scott Hammond: … mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And, you know, that equipment's gotta get built.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: Um, it's extremely large.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Hundreds of feet. And so… And it gets built in port
and gets towed out to the place standing up.
Scott Hammond: Correct.
Michael Kraft: So one of the reasons that Humboldt is almost uniquely qualified
this is we've got a deepwater port with just enough turning radius that that'll
work-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … and we don't have a bridge across it-
Scott Hammond: Ah
Michael Kraft: … that cuts off.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: We have a bridge, but it's not in front of the industrial,
Scott Hammond: Correct.
Michael Kraft: So, you know, th- like, these things are way taller than the
You're not gonna get them out.
Scott Hammond: You can't drive them, you can't drive them up here-
Michael Kraft: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: … from Sacramento.
Michael Kraft: Right.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Um, so that's a big opportunity.
Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.
Michael Kraft: Um, strengths, I think we talked about climate.
Um-
Scott Hammond: Mm. Hmm. Oh, yeah
Michael Kraft: … uh, you know, climate is a strength.
Um, we still have some available land.
Scott Hammond: Uh.
Michael Kraft: We've got…
We've got amenities that people who have choices in where they work-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … want to have, at least some of us.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: We have just enough culture, often for, for those folks.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Weaknesses, uh, infrastructure's weak.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: You know?
Scott Hammond: Meaning housing or medical or-
Michael Kraft: Uh, housing, healthcare, connectivity out of here,
conne- connectivity through, like, the best broadband, although a- another one of those big projects is from Singapore.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: And fingers crossed we will benefit from that.
Scott Hammond: So we would be able to not use O- Optimum
Suddenlink? Are you…
Michael Kraft: I-
Scott Hammond: Wait. What?
Michael Kraft: I don't know the answer to that. I, I don't know-
Scott Hammond: But-
Michael Kraft: … if this replaces Suddenlink,
right through Arcata.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: So, you know.
Scott Hammond: And that's, that's happening, right?
Michael Kraft: That, that's happening. M- I have heard, although I haven't, uh,
ground truthed this, that there are server farms, or at least one being
planned-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Kraft: … to take advantage of that. So that's an ec- economic upper.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, so our, our wea- weaknesses can be that.
We also don't have all the labor force that is gonna be needed.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: I think we're gonna have to accept, like, building the harbor out.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: There's gonna be a lot of specialist co-
out of the area to do that.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Um, some of those folks might stay,
jobs will be people who live here.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And I think… And, and there's gonna be boats
things daily or weekly-
Scott Hammond: Have to, right
Michael Kraft: … um, that, that do kind of routine maintenance f-
20 miles-
Scott Hammond: Mm
Michael Kraft: … 30 miles offshore.
But they actually do occasionally, and I don't know if this 10 years or what, but they tow the things back in-
Scott Hammond: Mm
Michael Kraft: … for more major m- maintenance.
Scott Hammond: Interesting. Okay.
Michael Kraft: Um, and then s- strengths, weaknesses, opportunities,
threats. I think from a threat perspective, I mean, I won't think globally about all the threats that-
Scott Hammond: Could be. [laughs]
Michael Kraft: … could be. But just a local threat is,
um, you know, we ha- we have a history of loving stuff to
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … of, of saying no to things that are big
of saying no to things that are in our backyards.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And I think that is a threat to at least some of this.
And-
Scott Hammond: Kind of the obstructionist headspace that-
Michael Kraft: Yeah
Scott Hammond: … it's too big, we can't do it-
Michael Kraft: And-
Scott Hammond: … it's not in my backyard or whatever.
Michael Kraft: Some of that, and also seeing the forest for the trees.
Scott Hammond: Mm.
Michael Kraft: And, you know, uh, everything you do at any kind of scale, so
this energy conversion-
Scott Hammond: Mm
Michael Kraft: … is a big-scale thing.
Scott Hammond: Mm.
Michael Kraft: It's gonna have environmental impacts, and I think work to do
that smartly and make those impacts smaller is smart.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: You know, some bird is gonna run into a blade on these
propellers-
Scott Hammond: Absolutely
Michael Kraft: … and, and
w-we're gonna have to be okay with that-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … um, at some level.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: Uh, you know, if we try to be absolute purists about it-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm. It'll never happen
Michael Kraft: … this stuff won't happen, and, and we,
you know, we won't do our part to decarbonize the
Scott Hammond: Not to mention our kids, our grandkids, and great-grandkids,
will have that diminishing r- opportunity,
uh, for-
Michael Kraft: Yeah, I can argue both sides of that.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: But, but yes, uh-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … w- you know, we want your kids to be able to do s-
to think about your kids.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: But your, uh, your kids-
Scott Hammond: My kids have all left. But that, that's not all true, but, um,
certainly-
Michael Kraft: Mm-hmm
Scott Hammond: … you know, we could go to homeownership in
Um-
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: No, that's good. So tell me, planning commission, so for the city,
dealing with, uh, trying to do more housing and doing the high-rises. Is, is that where I saw, uh, uh, our friends from Dick Taylor testify? The wa- the waterfront space there was being considered as part of your… And that's where Arcley's not happy with in-
Michael Kraft: Yeah. Um, so there are a number of the
lots that the city owns-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … that are, are being used in one way or another.
And the, the, the ones that have caught the most attention are the city-owned-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … kind of gravel dirt parking areas-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … near, uh, the new Dick Taylor facility.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Uh, C to F Street.
Um,
and I'm, I'm not a big housing person. I mean, I believe, uh, very firmly that we need housing at all
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Kraft: Um, but I, I do wanna make the distinction,
this is not tr- like, supportive housing. This is not let's scoop up the homeless and, and put them someplace.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: This is the ki- this is housing that, you know, one of
your kids would probably rent.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, that, uh,
you know, if we had a family of two-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … you know, a, a cook in a restaurant,
kid-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … this would be housing for them.
Um, it's also-
Scott Hammond: Mm.
Michael Kraft: Eureka's own code says that the ground floor of this stuff needs
be, um, resid- uh, visitor serving and-
Scott Hammond: Mm
Michael Kraft: … retail kinds of stuff.
Scott Hammond: Gotcha.
Michael Kraft: So it's gonna be kinda this
back to the future idea of apartments and houses over-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … shops.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Um, I don't think anybody with a straight face
bumpy dirt lot is the best use of that, and, and that's what-
Scott Hammond: That's what we have
Michael Kraft: … we've had for decades.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: So my hope is, and, and I as a citizen put in
this input-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … in the kind of
same vehicle that anybody else has, like answered the website poll and that kinda stuff.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, my hope is that we keep some view corridors.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, that the boardwalk does not get shaded,
We're not, not talking about that, and that the, the visitor serving stuff-
Scott Hammond: [clears throat]
Michael Kraft: … is as cool as it can be-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … and that those of us who live here would
Scott Hammond: Right. So b- still be a concert venue at the…
by, over by Jack's Seafood or-
Michael Kraft: Yeah
Scott Hammond: … Second and C.
Michael Kraft: Yeah. The plaza's not g- you know, they're not gonna rip up
Scott Hammond: That's, yeah
Michael Kraft: … brick area. Um-
Scott Hammond: I just kinda saw that it'd be great to have a,
above Humboldt Bay. That'd be magical, with a big patio, and-
Michael Kraft: Yeah, look out over-
Scott Hammond: Oh, that would be the view.
Michael Kraft: Have you heard what the view is gonna be from
a bar on the top shelf? On the top-
Scott Hammond: No, I've s-
Michael Kraft: … top shelf, I mean-
Scott Hammond: I mean, the, the top shelf of the [laughs] …
Michael Kraft: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: It is the top shelf.
Michael Kraft: The top floor.
Scott Hammond: I've watched them build it-
Michael Kraft: I think-
Scott Hammond: … for two years. It's, um…
No, I th- I think it'd be remarkable. It's pretty high up.
Michael Kraft: So I'm thi- I'm hoping for the view there.
Uh, but yeah, and so I, I actually think it's gonna be an
improvement.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, and I'm,
I'm a car person. I get around by cars.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: I park and, and I've worked in either Henderson Center
downtown Eureka for almost all of the past 15 years-
Scott Hammond: Mm
Michael Kraft: … except for the kind of on my dining room
things.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: And,
you know, I don't have a problem with parking. I, I always find a place to park. Um, but, uh, you know, it's not that I have no sympathy for to preserve the parking. I do think it's ironic that a number of the folks who are the loudest about
this, uh, hate everything socialist except
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
[laughs]
Michael Kraft: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Selective socialists. [laughs] There's probably some of
here. So no, gr- great answers and good perspective. So let's talk, uh, let's talk cannabis.
Um-
Michael Kraft: Happy to do it.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. So, uh, maybe a little history of Papa
sta- state of, state of the union-
Michael Kraft: Okay
Scott Hammond: … of the, uh, the c- the cannabis union.
[laughs] It's, it's, uh… I, I, I think it would be… we'd be remiss to not start with this, started, you know, and some of the, the hippies that came up in even the late '60s, early '70s, and they just… Everybody's back to earth anyway, so why don't we,
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: And it was Mon- paw, cattle growing weed, and then it
s- and then one day they sold a little bit
or… It became a, it became a commerce thing, and then it, and then it went from there. So I'll let you pick up the narrative.
Michael Kraft: So
I, I am not out of-
Scott Hammond: So a lot of people don't know this, so this will go to Texas,
going, "Marijuana? We s- My brother's in jail for one joint for 12 years." It's like-
Michael Kraft: Yeah
Scott Hammond: … it's so, it's like-
Michael Kraft: It, it's a, it's a crazy world. Um,
and so Humboldt County, of course, in the Emerald Triangle, uh, long history, several generations of growing weed.Uh, and-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … and somewhat follows the narrative
Uh, when I first ended up at Papa & Barkley,
"You know, we're a guest in the house that these other people built."
Scott Hammond: Huh.
Michael Kraft: You know, the, the back to the landers and
their kids, you know, are really a big part of the reason
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Papa & Barkley, I would say Papa & Barkley's in Eureka
California for three reasons.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, one is access to the best
outdoor-grown cannabis in the world.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, and we're a premium brand. We want that.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, it turns out that we probably could make a lot
of our products from lesser weed.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Uh, but, uh, like our hash products, and we just,
uh, one of our rosin, one of our premium rosins just won, uh, the top award at the High Times Cup, uh-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Kraft: … for its category.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And y- um, I'm not a hash person myself-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … but, uh, you don't make great hash
without great sun-grown weed.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Kraft: 'Cause the terpene profile,
um, the flavors from what's grown outdoors is,
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … far outstrips what you can-
Scott Hammond: It almost sounds like-
Michael Kraft: … do in indoors
Scott Hammond: … you're talking fine, fine wines.
[laughs] That's a-
Michael Kraft: Yeah, I mean-
Scott Hammond: … Napa Valley discussion. [laughs]
Michael Kraft: Well, and I, I w- I wrote a column, uh, about a month ago,
comparing some things to Everclear and fortified wine versus Mondavi.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Kraft: Um, and-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Kraft: … and we will come, I suspect, to some of the good newses and
bad newses in the state of the union stuff.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: So I'll hit that then.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Kraft: Um, so access to that weed is reason one.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, Eureka moved quite quickly. Uh, I
Development Commission at the time that legalization was
approaching.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And I thought we were moving slowly.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: But relative to other jurisdictions in the state, we
have a codified, clear,
passed-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … set of rules for weed companies to follow.
Scott Hammond: Is this Humboldt County or City of Eureka?
Michael Kraft: City of Eureka.
Scott Hammond: Okay.
Michael Kraft: So we did get a number of folks, including Papa & Barkley,
who said, "We're gonna go there 'cause we can get
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: "We know what the rules are."
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Um, and then the third is, not surprisingly, personal, that our
found- founder, Adam Grossman-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … his favorite niece is here.
Scott Hammond: Okay.
Michael Kraft: And h- um, that's, uh, uh, her name's Amy.
A- uh, Amy and John O'Connor own the Humboldt
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: John worked,
um, John was actually the person who brought
Scott Hammond: Okay.
Michael Kraft: Uh, he, he's since moved on, but, um-
Scott Hammond: They're out in Samoa at the airport there?
Michael Kraft: They do that.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: They own the Scotia Lodge.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, they've-
Scott Hammond: Pro-
Michael Kraft: … got a number of, of ventures.
Scott Hammond: Is that formerly the Scotia Inn?
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Big property.
Michael Kraft: I think they got that right.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: I think I g- I think I got the naming right.
Scott Hammond: I think you did, yeah.
Michael Kraft: They're, they're doing a great job there.
Um, and so that's how Papa & Barkley came Barkley's origin story, which is-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … uh, has the benefit of being true, is that-
Scott Hammond: [laughs] Imagine that
Michael Kraft: … uh, Adam's father, Mort-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: …
uh, had a dog named Barkley, so that's the Papa and the Barkley.
Scott Hammond: Okay.
Michael Kraft: And Mort was in hospice, and the healthcare folks told
Adam that y- you know, "Your dad is not gonna get out of bed ever."
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: "And he's not gonna be around long if he doesn't get out of bed soon."
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Kraft: And, uh, Adam was a pothead from way back.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: He's about our age.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, and he's right between you and me now,
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: So he's a year older than me, a year ol- year younger than you.
Scott Hammond: I'm only 49.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Keep telling yourself that.
[laughs]
Michael Kraft: [laughs] That's right.
Scott Hammond: 39.
Michael Kraft: Carry the 11, my friend.
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Kraft: Um, so
he called his old weed dealer. He got-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … some premium stuff. He put it in a Crockpot with some oil-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Kraft: … and basically got a recipe off the
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: But then he started, uh, working on it himself,
balm that he put on his dad's back.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Kraft: And in very short order, Mort was up and about, and-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Kraft: … he, he lived several good years after that.
Scott Hammond: Good story, yeah.
Michael Kraft: Uh, both Papa and Mort have passed on now.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: But, um, that pain balm
became this kind of first product of Papa & Barkley, and it's still the largest-selling balm in California dispensaries.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Kraft: That's kind of the wellness heart of the company.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um,
so that, that's how Papa & Barkley came to be here-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Kraft: … and how Papa & Barkley came to be.
Scott Hammond: So, so there's the edible portion of that.
There's the salve and wellness part.
Michael Kraft: Yeah. So we have several products. Um,
Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.
Michael Kraft: Um, also at the High Times Cup, our, uh,
chocolate caramel-filled bites won, uh, their top-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Kraft: … uh, uh, the top prize in their category.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Kraft: Just to die for, they're so good.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um,
and so we've got gummies and chocolates. We've got tinctures and capsules. We've got pain balms, um, body lotion.
So w- we're in a lot of the niche-y-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … parts. The edibles is the biggest category that we're in.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: We also have concentrates, so both rosin and hash.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Water hash, um-
Scott Hammond: Are those designed to be smoked?
Michael Kraft: Um-
Scott Hammond: Or ingested?
Michael Kraft: … generally people use a dab rig for,
But-
Scott Hammond: Is that a vaporizing kind of a-
Michael Kraft: Yeah, it's not a vape pen, but you, you got basically the right idea.
Scott Hammond: Okay, gotcha. Yeah, so this is, um,
yeah, so you get pretty diverse then.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Um, and so our kind of recent introductions
that, that we're pretty happy with are, uh, a, a suite of st- products that are designed for sleep.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Capsules, tinctures, gum, or capsules-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … and gummies, for sure. And,
um, this PNB Kitchen, which is that edibles line that is-
Scott Hammond: Okay
Michael Kraft: … is doing pretty well.
Scott Hammond: How's the sleep stuff work? I, I'm, I'm interested personally,
uh, at 49, I, I don't sleep nearly as well as I used to.
Michael Kraft: Yeah. So-
Scott Hammond: And, you know, to get up in the middle of the night
this arduous thing, and then-
Michael Kraft: Do you remember Mexican brickweed?
Scott Hammond: Yeah. We, we… Our family called it ditch weed.
Michael Kraft: Okay.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: So
in San Diego in the '70s, you would have had this kind of brown
Scott Hammond: Terrible. Ugh.
Michael Kraft: Well, it's an interesting thing
amazing couch lock, like you just wanted to look at your shoes
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Kraft: … is that THC degrades, uh, over time, and
especially if it's exposed to light-
Scott Hammond: Mm
Michael Kraft: … into something called CBN, and I can't remember-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … what that chemical is spelled out. But it promotes sleep.
Scott Hammond: Okay.
Michael Kraft: So we have a proprietary process where we actually
degrades THC to-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … produce CBN in, in precise ratios.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And so our sleep suite is based on a certain
amount of THC and CBN together.
Scott Hammond: I got you.
Michael Kraft: Um, and a lot of people swear by it. Um,
and i- the, we also have a CBD, CBN only version that we sell nationwide.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Kraft: And it's, uh, rapidly becoming our best-selling-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Kraft: … product outside of California.
Um, so we sell CBD products, [clears throat] uh, nationwide. We sell THC only in California.
Scott Hammond: Gotcha.
Michael Kraft: Um,
interestingly for me, I'm one of the people where it has an o-
effect.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Kraft: The CBN actually, uh, does something strange.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: So I don't sleep as well.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: But, but THC and CBD both help me sleep, so.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Yes.
Michael Kraft: I get eight, I get seven and a half to 10 hours a night, buddy.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
That's, [laughs] that's a big range.
[laughs]
Michael Kraft: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: It's funny how, um,
you know, common problems, sleep problems, and then-
Michael Kraft: Yeah
Scott Hammond: … my shoulder hurts, you know, so it, it meets a, that need,
So marijuana grew from the s- early '70s, late '60s, expanded in Humboldt. Um, were you implying that a lot of that money helped build, build out or some of the jobs? I mean, I, I, both of us know some of the people that have started businesses-
Michael Kraft: Yeah. I, I wasn't-
Scott Hammond: … 30 years ago
Michael Kraft: … implying it, but I will just flat out say it that,
Scott Hammond: They were funded by-
Michael Kraft: … absolutely, um-
Scott Hammond: … by money
Michael Kraft: … uh, a number of businesses were funded
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Uh, a number of people sup- um, you know,
supplemented their income that way.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: I think a, a lot of what made Humboldt cool to me
and I visited-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … were some of those funky, artsy things that wouldn't have been
possible without the kind of infusion of money that underground weed-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Kraft: … had provided here.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. So it has a base-
Michael Kraft: Um
Scott Hammond: … a baseline and-
Michael Kraft: Like, a s- you didn't have to be a starving artist
side.
Scott Hammond: Right. You could create-
Michael Kraft: Yeah
Scott Hammond: … amazing things.
Michael Kraft: And you can get much smarter people than me to come on here about
cultivation and that his- history.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, you know, I'm,
uh, I certainly have been aware of the various ways before-
Scott Hammond: Mm
Michael Kraft: … coming to Papen & Barkley, but the last four and a half years
only times that I've worked in the industry, so-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … you know, manufacturing, the rules, the workforce stuff-
Scott Hammond: Yeah. I-
Michael Kraft: … I'm probably kinda smart relative to
Scott Hammond: I think of Napa or Lodi and the, the,
and how that had to have come along-
Michael Kraft: Mm
Scott Hammond: … both in the, the gardening of the grape,
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: So it all, it all is kind of parallel metaphor.
Michael Kraft: Yeah. I mean, it's… So i- in that analogy, we would be choosing to
take grapes that somebody else grew, and we're a-
Scott Hammond: Mm
Michael Kraft: … you know, are we fermenting them in metal, or
Scott Hammond: Mm.
Michael Kraft: Are we aging them for a long time? Are we leaving the skins on?
I mean-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … all of that kinda stuff we dec-
we decide, and we, and we make, uh, very, very good products-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … as that. But the magic that is in that grape, uh,
not responsible for that.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: Um, there's really talented growers.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, and, you know, knock wood, and the
table here is wood, [knocks wood] uh, our partners seem to be making it.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Our, our cultivation partners, and it's, it's rough out there.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: I mean, and they, it's not that they're having an easy time,
feel pretty good about their odds of surviving.
Scott Hammond: Nice. So, so legalism, l- we got legal, what, in '16,
'15?
Michael Kraft: 16-ish, yeah.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. In, in your opinion, was it overly regulated right away by
state, fed? Or f- the feds didn't really regulate it.
Michael Kraft: Yeah. Uh, you're, you're correct, not the feds, but-
Scott Hammond: But we came in at a-
Michael Kraft: … between the state and, and w- we deal with the city,
within the city limits of Eureka.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: So our, the two entities that in my job I deal with on a
weekly basis are the city of Eureka and the state of California.
Scott Hammond: Gotcha.
Michael Kraft: Um, and together the rules were,
uh, deep.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Uh, in some cases onerous,
and, you know, I wouldn't have a job if we didn't have all of these rules.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: So I'm sort of biting the hand that feeds me, but there's way too many
rules.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Let me just come in and make some government snarky comment
Insert government snarky.
Michael Kraft: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: You know, um, is it weird to be more libertarian as you
Just, uh, I don't really need them to regulate my,
anything.
Michael Kraft: Well-
Scott Hammond: Well, some things. I need to go 50 in the corridor.
Michael Kraft: You probably-
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Kraft: Yeah, I, yeah, I mean, it's where you draw the lines, right?
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Um-
Scott Hammond: But there, it-
Michael Kraft: But there is probably something to be said with, you, you,
generally people get more cautious, and whatever wisdom is, get
more wise-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … as they age, so probably externally,
uh, enforced rules become somewhat less
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: But somewhere out there, there's a 20-year-old Mike
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … definitely need the rules. [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Why, that, that goes for you kids out there.
Uh, so in your opinion then, did this regulation, this onerous regulation, lead to some of the demise that we see today? Is it a, is it… And I wanna talk about that 'cause, um, um-Um, we had a guest that came on and said they took, uh, Nancy Olsen took a field trip down to wet, wet, nasty, hot tears, 'cause of families that are
suffering.
Michael Kraft: Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Hammond: And, and, you know, I think of that and I go, [tsks] yeah,
they're, these are people, and then there's families, a trickle-down, a cascade effect to all that. But is, is part of that suffering, and I want you to maybe comment on that, um, due to this over-regulation that came on hard and fast, and, and are they backing off from some of that?
Michael Kraft: Uh, th- so the first part, I would say yes, for sure.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: It takes a certain scale
… I mean, not every operator can afford to have
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … staying up with the rules, interpreting them, doing-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Kraft: … the onerous licensing work, all of
I mean, that's-
Scott Hammond: And they're gardening all day
Michael Kraft: … the core of my job.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And if you're trying to do that between 11:00
fields, that's rough.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um,
I think the level of taxation meant that the underground, uh, market was gonna stay robust.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And so if you chose to go legal as a
cultivator, th- that, that makes it particularly hard-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … because somebody can match your quality.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, they don't have the testing.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … their stuff is free of contaminants, but it's …
You can, in Humboldt County at least, you can think of yourself as going to the farmer mark- farmers' market, you know?
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: I know my farmer. I trust my farmer.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: I trust what they're selling me-
Scott Hammond: These tomatoes are awesome
Michael Kraft: … at least as much as I trust the USDA
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Kraft: … that tomato is okay to eat.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Kraft: Um, so I do think some of that. I think the,
the level of taxation h- has, uh, also reinforced that amount of the underground economy-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … of staying robust. Um-
Scott Hammond: Do you think it's caused some guys to-
Michael Kraft: It's super expensive to comply with these rules.
Scott Hammond: Oh, I bet.
Michael Kraft: And, you know, it, it … I mean, I had farmer friends who
time I see a guy with a clipboard, I f- you know, my wallet just got $5,000
lighter."
Scott Hammond: [laughs] A trigger off.
Michael Kraft: And-
Scott Hammond: God, that's … [laughs]
Michael Kraft: S- so there was a big transfer of wealth between 2016
2018, say-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … from people going legal in cultivation-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … especially to consultants and, and, you
know, people in helping you with your culverts
your waste-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … with your water plans and-
Scott Hammond: Oh, wow
Michael Kraft: … uh, just all of this stuff.
Scott Hammond: Created a whole nother industry.
Michael Kraft: It certainly expanded an industry.
Scott Hammond: Which has retracted since, right?
That, that ancillary-
Michael Kraft: I assume so.
Scott Hammond: In your opinion-
Michael Kraft: I don't actually-
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: I don't actually know that.
Scott Hammond: In your opinion, so did some people go back to the black
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: That attempted to.
Michael Kraft: Uh, and, and I'm gonna tell you
in all levels.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, I'm gonna be clear that Papa & Barkley does not do that.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: But-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Kraft: … there are certainly manufacturing brands
door.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: There's a phenomenon called burner distros, pr- um, which
is, you know, I find somebody who is desperate-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … some rube.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: I do the work to get that person a license to become a
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um,
I buy a bunch of par- product from the legal market-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … and I send it off to states where it's not
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Kraft: And at some point, that thing just folds.
That company entity just folds.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: The rube is left holding the bag.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Kraft: I've made off with a bunch of money.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Kraft: That is very clearly happening, and there are
recognizable brands-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … that are doing that.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Kraft: Um, and, and then you have, you know, cultivators who either stayed-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … in the illicit market or are selling to both.
Scott Hammond: Okay.
Michael Kraft: You know-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … went, went legal-
Scott Hammond: Hadn't thought of that
Michael Kraft: … but also are keeping their heads above water by
Scott Hammond: Could be both
Michael Kraft: … to Nebraska or someplace.
Scott Hammond: Sure. Turns out they smoke weed in Nebraska.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Good weed, in this case. Um, so, hey, part of the show where I ring a
bell.
[bell rings]
Michael Kraft: All right.
Scott Hammond: And so this is the quiz. This is kinda Best of Humboldt quiz.
I hope that-
Michael Kraft: Okay
Scott Hammond: … this, I hope I didn't steal that from-
Michael Kraft: Oh, crap
Scott Hammond: … the Journal if I did.
Michael Kraft: Okay.
Scott Hammond: So, uh, whe- when you and Tish eat out,
Michael Kraft: We like,
uh, Tish's favorite place is Tomo-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … uh, uh, in Arcata-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … the sushi restaurant.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Kraft: Mine is probably the, uh, La Costa, the
Mexican place in Fortuna.
Scott Hammond: Ah, good call. No one's brought that one up yet.
So you have a Saturday to do anything in Humboldt besides go to La Costa. [laughs] What, what do you guys go do out- uh, outdoor in the-
Michael Kraft: Uh, our go-to is we take the dogs to the South Spit.
I th-
Scott Hammond: Oh, cool
Michael Kraft: … throw them a Frisbee. We have Whippets-
Scott Hammond: Mm
Michael Kraft: … which are, uh, very, very fast sighthounds.
They look like greyhounds that were shrunk by a third.
Scott Hammond: They're good with Frisbees?
Michael Kraft: They're very good with Frisbees. They-
Scott Hammond: Ah
Michael Kraft: … they catch … If I make a decent throw, they catch them.
Scott Hammond: They catch them.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Cool. Uh, where do you go for coffee?
Michael Kraft: You know, I have to say mostly I brew my own coffee-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … and I brew good coffee, but Old Town Coffee & Chocolates would be
Scott Hammond: Go-to
Michael Kraft: … source. Uh, and if I'm gonna do a meeting, I'll either go
there, uh, over coffee, or I'll go to, uh, Los Bagels.
Scott Hammond: Ah, good one. Tell me about, so you guys have to hike a trail,
any trail. Pick one. Where would you guys go hike?
Not a beach.
Michael Kraft: Not a beach?
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: Okay, uh, Trillium Falls.
Scott Hammond: Ah, good call. Prairie Creek.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, Toni took me out there. It's pretty magical.
Michael Kraft: By the way,
I will say this to the world, I have a pulled groin, which I got in f- frigging Fern Canyon.
Scott Hammond: In Fern Canyon. [laughs]
Michael Kraft: I slipped on a-
Scott Hammond: Oh, nuts
Michael Kraft: … slimy rock on a wet day.
Scott Hammond: Oh, damn.
Michael Kraft: I went, "Oh,
this is a walk, not a hike," but I-
Scott Hammond: This can't be good
Michael Kraft: … still managed to hurt myself.
Scott Hammond: Did you get out okay?
Michael Kraft: Yeah, yeah. And, and, and it's annoying. It's not debilitating.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. No, I, I hear you. So how could…
How do you think we as a… So qui- quiz is over. Uh, how do we make a difference in Humboldt, just besides business develop- How, what do you, what do you see, um, Joe and Linda Common person doing to, to make this a better place to live?
Michael Kraft: Well, the cool thing is everybody here can make a difference
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: You know, find the nonprofit board,
Scott Hammond: You could, yeah.
Michael Kraft: Uh, there's so-
Scott Hammond: Volunteer
Michael Kraft: … so many opportunities to step up
know, you, you do not have to be an elite person to do great stuff here.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, and so, a- and that fits with my own philosophy,
gotten older and kind of narrowed my focus.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Uh,
you know, I just wanna feel like at the end of the
in this-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … corner of the world where I live.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: And, and the opportunities for that abound.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. No, there is… I just got invited to
serve on a board. What did Groucho say? [laughs] "I would never be part of a club-
Michael Kraft: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: … that would have me as a member."
Michael Kraft: That would have me.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. [laughs] Anyway, I think I'm gonna say-
Michael Kraft: And, and you do… I, I mean, it, it is…
The other side of that coin is for your own self-care and health, no to some stuff, too.
Scott Hammond: Absolutely.
Michael Kraft: If, if, if you're somebody who's said yes to two
Scott Hammond: Uh
Michael Kraft: … you're gonna have five more ask you.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: And, and a- I kinda keep it at, like, three,
two or three things-
Scott Hammond: Nice
Michael Kraft: … at o- at a time.
Scott Hammond: It's like a credit card company.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: You just get more offers.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: So usually I save this for the beginning, so I'll ask it at the end,
winding down. Uh, who is Michael Kraft, and what do you want?
Michael Kraft: Well, I'm a person who was much more interested in the
place that I live and the person I made my life with than a p- particular career path-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Kraft: … or that kinda thing. I… Humboldt County was definitely the right
me.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Uh, and that's
probably 98, 99% of the people-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Kraft: … do not belong here. You know, it just doesn't work for them.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Either the opportunities aren't right, or the place is too far
away from stuff, or they can't-
Scott Hammond: Right
Michael Kraft: … live without Olive Garden or whatever.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: I,
I was definitely meant to be here.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Uh, you know, I wanted a rural place, a beautiful place,
also wanted a place with some culture.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: Um, and so I'm, I'm, I'm that guy. I, I did some stuff that
was career-oriented. Um, you know, I got an MBA and, and actually I was quite ambitious and-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … wore three-piece suits and worked too damn hard for quite a
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: But I always was aware that Southern California w-
was too dense for me.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Kraft: So, you know, that move to Colorado
were a part of that. Um, Tish and I are soulmates. We were meant to be, uh, and so-
Scott Hammond: Nice
Michael Kraft: … that's, you know… I don't know if I've got a three-legged
the two legs are,
uh-
Scott Hammond: [laughs] Not tipping
Michael Kraft: … the right place and with the right person.
Uh, maybe the third leg of the stool is trying to do that thing in my corner of the world. Just-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … trying to be a decent guy making a small
Scott Hammond: Love it. Good answer. Tell me, um, what, what's your gravestone say
in your, in your mind?
Michael Kraft: That was weird.
Scott Hammond: That was… [laughs] I liked…
I like what Linda-
Michael Kraft: That's a cartoon that I just love.
Scott Hammond: That was weird. [laughs]
That was strange. Um-
Michael Kraft: There's, there's some great gravestones out there.
Um, you know, uh, Mel Blanc, the voice o- the-
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Bugs Bunny
Michael Kraft: … comic guy.
Scott Hammond: Bugs Bunny.
Michael Kraft: Bugs Bunny and all those. Yeah. It was, "That's all, folks."
Scott Hammond: That's all, folks. [laughs] Perfect.
I should look that up afterwards. That'll be funny to read that. The, um… So let's talk real quick about beer before you go. So you were president of the Home- Home Brewers?
Michael Kraft: Uh, for a year, yeah.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Kraft: And I was an officer for a couple years more than that.
So the Humboldt Home Brewers are, you know, just this group of people home brewing. They enjoy sharing what they-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … brew. Um, and, uh, I'm looking
forward to the fall when Hoptoberfest starts a-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … again. That's the return of that little festival.
Scott Hammond: And they do that at Perigo Park in Blue Lake?
Michael Kraft: Exactly.
Scott Hammond: It's like a Sunday afternoon?
Michael Kraft: It's an afternoon.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Kraft: And-
Scott Hammond: Well, it's not like-
Michael Kraft: … it's very small scale
Scott Hammond: … what's the one in Fortuna that's just too
Michael Kraft: Uh, that is-
Scott Hammond: It's, like, 50 bucks and it's-
Michael Kraft: Hops for Humboldt? Hops and Humboldt?
Scott Hammond: Hops for… Hops and Humboldt, yeah.
Michael Kraft: Hops and Humboldt. Yeah, it's a little too intense for me,
Uh, so not my personal thing. Uh, but, you know, they, they support great causes-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Kraft: … so not throwing shade, just-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … not personally where I would spend the
But, um, a, a small pour, you know. I have a barley wine that is hopefully gonna be ready to go for-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Kraft: … for then. It's been aging since December.
And, uh-
Scott Hammond: Look for you out there
Michael Kraft: … so I'm looking, I'm looking forward to that.
Scott Hammond: That'll be fun, yeah. And Blue Lake's… Shout out to Blue Lake.
We went to Huckleberry Flint last night at, uh, the Folklife Festival-
Michael Kraft: Uh-huh
Scott Hammond: … at Del Arte Theater.
Michael Kraft: Such a cool little town, Blue Lake.
Scott Hammond: It's so… You know, and the people are nice and-
Michael Kraft: I mean, I don't know how many towns of
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Kraft: It can't be 5%.
Scott Hammond: No. That's our go-to date night, too,
But yeah, they got, they got the Buddy Brown, uh,
up.
Michael Kraft: Mm-hmm.
Scott Hammond: You got your… They have the bike race.
They have a big thing after their big Blue Lake whatever open. They got your thing, the beer thing, so Annie and Mary Days.
Michael Kraft: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: I think they just like to drink beer-
Michael Kraft: Some good theater
Scott Hammond: … out in Blue Lake. That's-
Michael Kraft: A lot of beer in Blue Lake.
Scott Hammond: That's it. Yeah. A lot of Mad River beer and others, but-
Michael Kraft: A lot of Mad River beer and-
Scott Hammond: Anyway, any-
Michael Kraft: … all of the rest of us that are-
Scott Hammond: Any parting shots?
Michael Kraft: Uh, this has been fun.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Thanks for coming, Ben. And, um, uh, love to have you back and
appreciate, uh, appreciate all you do to make
Michael Kraft: Thank you for saying that.
Scott Hammond: You bet. Well, that's all, folks.