Episode 19 · Michael Fratkin · October 7, 2023
Dr. Michael Fratkin has spent three decades in Humboldt caring for people at the hardest edges of illness, grief, and change. In this conversation, he talks about palliative care as people-first work: easing symptoms, helping families navigate a broken system, and staying present when things get serious. He also reflects on the strange gifts of aging, awe, and building a life rooted here.
Watch the conversation
What this episode covers
- Fratkin’s winding path to Humboldt, from New York to Texas, Alaska, Utah, and finally the North Coast.
- Why he was drawn to hospice and palliative care, and to people facing serious illness or mortality.
- His core approach: people, not patients; symptom control; and helping families navigate healthcare.
- The creation of Resolution Care and the move to telehealth-based palliative care during the pandemic.
- What it meant to help thousands of local families through death, illness, and hard decisions.
- His current interest in psychedelic-assisted therapy and ketamine work in Humboldt.
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Transcript
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Scott Hammond: Hey, folks. Welcome, uh, to my guest, the special, the man,
legend, Dr. Michael Fratkin. Good to see you.
Michael Fratkin: [chuckles] Nice to see you too, Scott.
Scott Hammond: How's everything?
Michael Fratkin: Everything is complicated, interesting, and
overall pretty darn good.
Scott Hammond: Nice. We have a lot to be grateful for.
Michael Fratkin: Always.
Scott Hammond: We do. You know, it's, it's funny,
going, "You know, I feel like I know Michael,
like you're somebody I know but I haven't seen.
Michael Fratkin: Hmm.
Scott Hammond: You know? Between COVID, and just life, and your business,
and the arc, and we'll get to all that. So I, I always… I always start with two questions.
Who, who is, who's Michael?
Michael Fratkin: Who is me?
Scott Hammond: Who are, who are you?
Michael Fratkin: Well-
Scott Hammond: Who are you and what do you want?
Michael Fratkin: I'm a father
and a husband, and a brother, and a friend, and a son.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Fratkin: And I'm also
a Humboldt County resident for nearly 30 years.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: Once I settled, this is where I came.
I'm a doctor.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm. Saw you went to school at Irvine.
Michael Fratkin: No.
Scott Hammond: Oh.
Michael Fratkin: No.
Scott Hammond: Oh.
Michael Fratkin: No.
Scott Hammond: It-
Michael Fratkin: I went to school with Irving.
Scott Hammond: Irving?
Michael Fratkin: But no, no. No Irvine.
Scott Hammond: Oh, AI has it wrong, folks.
Michael Fratkin: They totally have it wrong.
Scott Hammond: How could this be?
Michael Fratkin: No, I went to medical school at the University
30th medical school
reunion.
Scott Hammond: Reunion, yeah.
Michael Fratkin: We can put a pin in that if you wanna come back to it.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: But boy, that was interesting.
Scott Hammond: I bet that was fun.
Michael Fratkin: Um, and then, uh, yeah, so what do I want?
I want to experience life every day
such that I'm infused with a sense of meaning,
purpose, and then just for my own spectacular enjoyment, awe.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: I'm totally
an awe junkie.
Scott Hammond: Wow. How do we get some of that?
It's everywhere. [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Everywhere.
Scott Hammond: Everywhere you look, if you want it-
Michael Fratkin: Everywhere
Scott Hammond: … it's there.
Michael Fratkin: You know? Mm-hmm.
Scott Hammond: So tell us the, the, the Michael story. How did you…
You were born somewhere, and then you went to school, So h- gi- give us that time mark.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was born in Upstate New York-
Scott Hammond: Uh-huh
Michael Fratkin: … uh, in one of the most difficult towns to
Scott Hammond: I thought you were gonna say-
Michael Fratkin: Just outside of Albany, New York
Scott Hammond: … I thought you were gonna say Oneonta.
Michael Fratkin: [laughs] And, uh,
and then as I entered high school, my family started to shake and shudder, and we ended up relocating a number of times, once, uh, to Florida, and
then, uh… Where else did we go? We went from Florida to Austin, Texas. So I went to, like, three different high schools-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … um,
which is kind of related to the whole reunion thing. I'd never been to any kind of a reunion 'cause I never really had been connected to my high school class-
Scott Hammond: Right
Michael Fratkin: … or college class or anything like that.
So anyways, I, um,
uh… Yeah, so I, uh, I, I finished high school in Austin, Texas, year or two at the University of Texas, but then before my grades tanked I wasn't happy and I didn't know what I wanted to do.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: So I shuttered everything up and hit the road,
where I worked as a ski lift operator.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Fratkin: And then I traveled to Lake Tahoe, where I lived outside and
climbed rocks for, uh, about a year.
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Then I returned and skied at, uh, the Rustler
Lodge in Alta, if anybody knows that place. It's a pretty amazing place, Alta, Utah.
Scott Hammond: Alta, okay.
Michael Fratkin: And stayed there for a couple of years.
And then I went to Alaska and fished on a salmon boat.
Scott Hammond: Wow. Wow.
Michael Fratkin: Which
told, taught me that I really wanted to go back, [laughs] because-
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: … I am not that kind of a physical specimen,
uh, where I thought that I'd wanted to work that hard with my body. Um, and my brain works pretty good, so I decided to go back to school.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: I studied marine biology for a while.
Studied, uh, political science for a while.
Scott Hammond: In Utah?
Michael Fratkin: Uh, in, well, in Florida and in Texas.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: And then,
uh, ultimately I finished back in Utah. Once I decided I wanted to go to medical school-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … I went back to Utah and finished there,
of friends and people there.
Scott Hammond: Sure. Sure. Wow, what an adventure.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah, it was, like, nine years to get an undergraduate degree.
Scott Hammond: Kinda like the backside of Benjamin Button when he went
the end of his backward-
Michael Fratkin: Are you comparing me to Brad Pitt? Is-
Scott Hammond: A little bit, yeah. Indirectly.
Michael Fratkin: Oh, my goodness. I'm a lucky man.
Scott Hammond: Glad you caught that, yeah. [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: [laughs] Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, you and Brad. So who were you at 15? What
The, the, the nerdy-
Michael Fratkin: Oh
Scott Hammond: … teenage Michael?
Michael Fratkin: … God, I had the worst hair anywhere.
I-
Scott Hammond: Did you have a fro, or was it long, or like-
Michael Fratkin: It's like a Jew fro. I had, like, a Jew fro.
Scott Hammond: A Jew [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: It's kinda like, it was like it flopped over to one side.
Scott Hammond: Nice. I didn't know that was a thing. That's a thing.
Michael Fratkin: Oh, it's a thing.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: It's totally a thing.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Totally a thing. And, um, I was stoned,
like, all the time.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: I barely graduated high school.
Scott Hammond: Who wasn't? Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: I watched a lot of TV,
drank a lot of, like, I think Mountain Dew.
Scott Hammond: Gross.
Michael Fratkin: Really.
[laughs] And, um-
Scott Hammond: I know about that. With nine kids they, they'll drink.
Michael Fratkin: My, my teenage years were, were years of
kind of involution, of, like, collapsing inside of myself-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … and feeling
so insecure that I just put out no risk at all. I took no risk at anything.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. That's a well-said
occurrence. I think that is a thing.
Michael Fratkin: People do that.
Scott Hammond: Involution.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Involution.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: A turn inward.
And somewhere along the
lineI caught the idea that maybe there was more to life. I mean, it was a time when environmental pressures like reinforced my own sense of kinda hopelessness. It was a time when, uh, there were, uh, books being written about nu-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … where the nuclear freeze campaign
idea that we had mutually assured destruction with gajillions of ICBMs pointed, uh, at ourselves and each other-
Scott Hammond: Right
Michael Fratkin: … such that a button gets pushed
I remember, like, hearing a car backfire or some kind of a sound in the environment, and I was like-
Scott Hammond: Freak out
Michael Fratkin: … that's, that's where I went to immediately.
Like, this is, it's all gonna end in a bunch of mushroom uh, and, uh, scattered subatomic particles.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. 'Cause that's what it was.
Michael Fratkin: That's what it felt like.
Scott Hammond: Well done.
Michael Fratkin: And so I was super down. I mean, uh, it, cause and effect,
probably super down anyways.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: But the sort of relationship between that kind of externalized
sense of social hopelessness-
Scott Hammond: Ah
Michael Fratkin: … and my own feelings inside just made for
bong rips.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. I wonder if that relates to today, it, to our kids.
Michael Fratkin: I don't know.
Scott Hammond: I see, I see some quiet desperation that is
similar, and I, I, I kinda wonder sometimes that they have a harder, a little harder time in some ways.
Michael Fratkin: I know you gotta put, you gotta put some articulate kid behind
talk to them, but, 'cause I don't, I don't really-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … know. I mean, I look at my
incredible daughter, she's almost 18, my son, 13, and-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Fratkin: … they're going through stuff,
have a certain je ne sais quoi, a certain kinda sense-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … of
l- you know, less catastrophism than I can remember
Scott Hammond: Good
Michael Fratkin: … teenager.
Scott Hammond: That's good.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah. They're both pretty-
Scott Hammond: That's a good … I'm gonna put, put a pin in that.
Let's get a good teenager on the show. A good tea- a good teenager. I don't know what that looks like.
Michael Fratkin: I won't volunteer my daughter 'cause she'd kill me.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, I know. She would.
Michael Fratkin: But I'll ask her.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Hey, never know. So h- tell us the story about how you got to
How, what, what brought you here? How did you arrive? What'd, what'd you do when you got here?
Michael Fratkin: There's a part A and a part B.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Fratkin: Uh, the part A is when I was living in Lake Tahoe climbing on rock,
uh, with a friend of mine living in a tent, um, we had a friend who was going to South Lake Tahoe Community
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: And he needed a ride home to Humboldt to see his parents over, like,
some break, winter break I think it was.
Uh-
Scott Hammond: Huh
Michael Fratkin: … so we gave him a ride.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: And he, h- people who know Arcata
Bayside will appreciate this, but his parents, uh, who worked with Caltrans at the time in I'm gonna say '85 or s- '80, f- no, 1981 or 2, they lived in that incredible building right across from the Bayside Grange-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … which is now the hot yoga building.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: And so I came with my buddy Billy, uh, and
Chris, uh, and we hung out in Humboldt County for
week or so.
Scott Hammond: That's a historical site. That building was a-
Michael Fratkin: Amazing
Scott Hammond: … was a school or a something.
Michael Fratkin: I don't know-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … but staying inside of it
mist and the amazing forests around here-
Scott Hammond: Huh
Michael Fratkin: … totally left a, a mark in me. Um, and
then a whole other bunch of life unfolded,
and as I finished my training, I had to decide, you know, where do I wanna go and be? What, where do I wanna have my life unfold? And I wanted a place that was in the Pacific Northwest-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … had beautiful forests, rivers-
Scott Hammond: Check, check
Michael Fratkin: … ocean-
Scott Hammond: Check
Michael Fratkin: …
um, and was far away from everything else-
Scott Hammond: Double check
Michael Fratkin: … so that it, it wouldn't change-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … so rapidly.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Fratkin: The population was stable-
Scott Hammond: Huh
Michael Fratkin: … maybe a little bit economically, um,
below average in terms of all the typical growth that you see in-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Fratkin: … groovy towns.
Scott Hammond: Checking all those boxes.
Michael Fratkin: Exactly. And so-
Scott Hammond: It's not Santa Cruz, yeah.
Michael Fratkin: No.
Scott Hammond: No.
Michael Fratkin: Like, not, not exploding, not changing-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … not homogenizing like every place else.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Fratkin: Um, you know, left-leaning politics, that, check
Scott Hammond: Double check.
Michael Fratkin: You know, 25, 50,000 people, check, check.
Uh, university.
Scott Hammond: Check, check, check.
Michael Fratkin: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Check, sibilance.
Michael Fratkin: All that stuff-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … had me recognize this place as home
So when I-
Scott Hammond: Huh
Michael Fratkin: … got finished with my training,
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … of the Open Door Clinic, and Herman Spetzler and his wife Cheyenne-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … and, um-
Scott Hammond: The legend.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah. And I, uh,
I, uh, I made them hire me.
Scott Hammond: Was he a cool guy?
Michael Fratkin: Herman Spetzler?
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Herman Spetzler was an extraordinary human being.
Super brilliant, incredibly strategic.
Scott Hammond: Started a big clinic called the Open Door Clinic.
Michael Fratkin: Was the only-
Scott Hammond: All over the county
Michael Fratkin: … reason the Open Door Clinic h-
is really the, the backbone of healthcare for-
Scott Hammond: Truly
Michael Fratkin: … our community, primary care, specialty care,
Scott Hammond: All of it
Michael Fratkin: … dentistry, all of that for people-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … who may or may not have a bunch of
Scott Hammond: Yeah. They were out at Ferndale Fairgrounds for the
where they take care of veterans, and the Open Door dentist van is there. And yeah, quite a guy. And I remember as a college student being getting care downtown Arcata at the old store.
Michael Fratkin: Yep. Yeah, it started I don't know how many millions
of late stages of the Vietnam War.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: He and a bunch of other docs, uh, basically opened up in what is now
the Tin Can Mailman, right next to the-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … Open Door Clinic.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Fratkin: Uh, that w- they had a few cots, and they did, uh,
and-
Scott Hammond: Really?
Michael Fratkin: … uh, that sort of thing for folks.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: And then they just did the next thing and the next thing
now they're in Crescent City, uh,
uh-
Scott Hammond: Ukiah maybe?
Michael Fratkin: No, not in, not in Ukiah.
Scott Hammond: SoHum. Maybe SoHum.
Michael Fratkin: Crescent City, uh, McKinleyvilleUh, the North Coast
Clinic in, Clinic in Arcata-
Scott Hammond: In-
Michael Fratkin: The Arcata Clinic in Arcata
Scott Hammond: Eureka, the big one.
Michael Fratkin: Eureka Community Health Center, uh, the Telehealth Center also
in Eureka, uh, Fortuna-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Fratkin: … Clinic, uh, the Mobile Medical Clinic-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Fratkin: … Dental Clinic. They are the backbone of primary
care and-
Scott Hammond: I have to agree with that. Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: So, so when I met you, which was not meeting you, I saw you on
TV 20, 15 years ago.
Michael Fratkin: Seriously?
Scott Hammond: You were telling, yeah, you were telling your story on, on,
about being a palliative care guy, and you kinda gave the highlights in what did, and you attended a lot of deaths and… Can we talk about that?
Michael Fratkin: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. I mean, c- coming up to Resolution Care,
that.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah. Well, I, uh, I came to town as a primary care
internal medicine doctor, which just means that my focus in primary care was on adults with complicated illness. Um, I spent a lot of time staying current and capable as an HIV specialist-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … uh, when I first got here, but my heart was always,
always in the care of people who were really, really sick.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Um, and I ended up, not too long after I got here,
um, stepping into the medical directorship Hospice of Humboldt.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Hospice and palliative care have just always
drawn my attention. It's the kinda thing where I'm drawn situations where people are confronted by their mortality-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … where the, the shit is really going down.
I'm drawn to move towards those things-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … while quite naturally, a lot of folks are drawn to go the other
Scott Hammond: To run.
Michael Fratkin: To run.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Fight or flight.
Michael Fratkin: Um, that doesn't make me any better.
Maybe it makes me more, uh, you know, kind of into tension and conflict and drama.
Scott Hammond: That's something-
Michael Fratkin: I don't know what the reason is, but I've always been drawn towards it.
I, I worked as a, a emergency room tech in, uh, Florida, uh, Tampa General Hospital, and one of my jobs was to gather information from people who got brought in by stretchers and-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … trauma situations and all the rest.
So they'd be cutting off their clothes, they'd be intubating them, doing x-rays, putting in lines and IV infusion sites and all the rest of it, and the only place you could go to talk to these people, if they were able to talk, um, was over their head.
Scott Hammond: Oh.
Michael Fratkin: So behind their head while they're lying that way.
Scott Hammond: Upside down.
Michael Fratkin: Upside down. And I would talk to these people,
"What's your name?"
Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.
Michael Fratkin: "Where are you from? What's going on? How are you feeling?
Are you okay? It's going to be okay."
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: And I would talk to these people upside down,
and it kind of anchored this concept that there's everything that's going on with people. There's their broken leg, their pulmonary contusion,
their-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … intra-abdominal bleeding, their surgical problem, and then
there's the person inside of all that.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: And that was, that was sort of critical for me to decide that
I would go into the field of, um, medicine, that I would ultimately train as
a doctor.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Fratkin: So fast-forward,
I always had my interest in people who were living at the sort of edge of mortality, mor- mortality. And when I got here, I ended up working at the Open Door Clinic, but my responsibilities were for all of the folks that were some of the most complicated people.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Fratkin: People with incomplete diagnoses, people that were
progressively, um, moving towards their death as a result of neurologic disease or heart disease or lung disease or cancer.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Fratkin: And I got less and less interested
in what was wrong with them than how they were navigating-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … the natural human process of finishing a
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Um, and so that became more and more my area of
interest, and all the whizzbang technical medical became less and less of an interest.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Um,
palliative care is this beautiful,
unique neighborhood inside of the modern healthcare system
where the first, second, and third things that matter is who the person is-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … and how they're relating
to what's happening to them.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: So I describe it in kind of three ways.
Number one, we don't take care of any patients.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: We only take care of people.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Um, we do that with other people-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … in a fully staffed palliative care
That includes a doctor, a nurse, a social worker, a chaplain, maybe a community health worker.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: But a, uh, a team of people with differing
kinda wrap around and provide a sorta 360-degree view-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … of what's happening to the person
with the cancer, the heart disease, the whatever, whatever.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Right?
Um, so number one, people, not patients.
Scott Hammond: Right on.
Michael Fratkin: Number two,
because the quality of the lived experience, the quality of life for people who are dealing with a serious illness or life-limiting illness or terminal illness or diseases or illnesses that are gonna kill them-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … since their quality of life
turns out we're also technical esper- experts in, um, optimal symptom control.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Fratkin: So the things that
make you miserable when you're sick.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Pain, breathlessness, nausea, fatigue,
or just the sort of psychospiritual
challenge-
Scott Hammond: Stress
Michael Fratkin: …
in grappling, uh, with the, the fact that life is not an infinite-Um, experience.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Um, so number two, symptom control. We're damn good at it.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: We take good care of people-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … and then their symptoms so
Scott Hammond: Right. Not afraid to give 'em meds
Michael Fratkin: Not afraid to give 'em meds.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: No. And not afraid to adjust those meds
this and try a little of that, and finesse it so on their own goals-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … how much medicine versus how much clarity,
get to be empowered to kind of derive-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … the, uh, the nuances of their symptom-
Scott Hammond: Pretty powerful. Empowering.
Michael Fratkin: Very empowering.
Scott Hammond: I like it.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah, that's the idea.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. So-
Michael Fratkin: So people, not patients.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Symptoms. And then third, um, I don't know if I'm
allowed to say this, but I'm gonna say our healthcare system
Scott Hammond: Oh, yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah. And, uh-
Scott Hammond: Call it a me- medical desert is what we refer to.
Michael Fratkin: Unbelievable. I mean, a- and that means that we don't have enough
fucked up healthcare structures.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Fratkin: In other cities where there's tons of that-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … let me promise you,
it's fucked up.
Scott Hammond: There, there too.
Michael Fratkin: Our system is terrible.
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Our healthcare system does not prioritize-
Scott Hammond: Mm
Michael Fratkin: … individual human beings. It does not prioritize smooth
processes and operations so for the experience of the person-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … with illness who's under stress.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: It's optimized for the economic structures that
drive it.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Fratkin: I don't wanna go off on a soapbox-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … but it really is problematic. So the third thing
focus on is, um, when people have very complicated medical illnesses, they always have really difficult human circumstances.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: We don't take care of people with a bump on their knee and a rash on
their nose. The people that we take care of in palliative care seriously ill. They're confronted by either mortality or other kinds of significant losses and disability.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Fratkin: And we help them to navigate through this crazy
healthcare system that we've got.
Scott Hammond: This could be money or relationships or vocation.
Michael Fratkin: Could be anything.
Scott Hammond: Anything, yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Usually, it's a lot of information exchange,
advocacy and, um, making it easier for them to get from step one to step two to step three-
Scott Hammond: Love it
Michael Fratkin: … so they can benefit from the amazing
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … uh, in caring for their, their particular underlying disease
state. Um, but yeah, we focused, uh, uh, for many, many years, I focused on, uh, people who don't have a lot of resources,
who are-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … burdened by being poor, by being mentally ill, by
being-
Scott Hammond: Check, check, check
Michael Fratkin: … substance abusers-
Scott Hammond: Humble, humble
Michael Fratkin: … by being-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … you know, whatever.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. We're all about that. So to make your point, Joni, my wife, you,
shared this with you, 'cause thanks for finally hanging out with
Michael Fratkin: Yeah, yeah.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: You learn stuff.
Scott Hammond: Thanks. Thanks. Thanks for being my friend finally.
Michael Fratkin: Mm.
Scott Hammond: Uh, Joni had a stroke five months ago, so y-
little bit, Joni's a runner and a hiker and a-
Michael Fratkin: Oh, yeah
Scott Hammond: … competitive, uh, cyclist.
Michael Fratkin: And a mom times, how many kids do you have?
Scott Hammond: We have nine. I'm number 10.
Michael Fratkin: Oh, my God.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Soon to be 10 grandkids, which is cool.
So, uh, yeah-
Michael Fratkin: Wow, that's great
Scott Hammond: … we haven't seen each other for a while.
I, I, I go, "Your 18-year-old was, like, three." So, uh, navigate, uh, this stroke that she had one morning in McKinleyville, and I had to go get her, Hospital, and, and, uh, fortunately, we had a good E- a, a slow ER morning and a doc that was decent.
Michael Fratkin: Hmm.
Scott Hammond: And they… But the care there,
been night and day. It's just terrible. And just ambivalence and obfuscation, and, you know, "We don't have your file," and, "Oh, shit. What, what-
Michael Fratkin: Oh, man
Scott Hammond: … really? Are you ser-
Either, A, you don't have a problem, or, B, you have a big problem." Because people were just, um, from-
Michael Fratkin: From one person to another, from one shift to another.
Scott Hammond: Crazy.
Michael Fratkin: There's no coherence-
Scott Hammond: The handoff and-
Michael Fratkin: … in understanding. Mm-hmm
Scott Hammond: … no one's answering a phone in primary
It, it's– Anyway, so she's got a green light. She's starting to walk and run, and she was given four miles a day to walk, and now she's, she cheated it. She got it up to 10, and anyway, she just got the green light to finally
Michael Fratkin: Nice. Oh, man.
Scott Hammond: Touch to 5K, so she's good.
Michael Fratkin: I'm glad, I'm glad that the story direct pointed towards her-
Scott Hammond: The therapy's back, yeah
Michael Fratkin: … excellent recovery.
Scott Hammond: But the point is that y- the, to me is that she's the last person
maybe in the county or the planet that would, could've had, should've had a stroke. It'd be all the fat asses like you and me-
Michael Fratkin: Mm
Scott Hammond: … that, you know-
Michael Fratkin: Mm
Scott Hammond: … maybe don't, are not altogether healthy.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: And, um, so it could, it-
Michael Fratkin: Mm
Scott Hammond: … could happen to anybody. But yeah, terr- terrible experience.
Michael Fratkin: It's so hard to make your way. Even if you just have a sniffy nose or an
anxiety about maybe it's this COVID, uh, you get, want some advice about whether you should take Paxlovid or shouldn't.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: You know, getting access to, uh, wise guidance
in healthcare, even for the most simple things, is hard. And when things get more complicated and more grave, uh, and the decisions become more critical and
pivotal, um-
Scott Hammond: Right, right
Michael Fratkin: … most often the support for those choices
yours to make aren't, is not there.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Fratkin: So that's a big part of what palliative…
So number one, people, not patients. Number two, symptom control, super important. And number three, navigational assistance to be able to get out of the healthcare system, but also to do it on your own terms.
Scott Hammond: In a timely manner, you just highlighted when it's critical.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah. I'm a, a b- a lot of people perceive me as a pain in
advocate and have advocated for decades that if the person in front of me would be in less distress by getting something done now rather than two weeks and waiting for the queue to do, I jump the queue, I cut the velvet rope, I call people-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … and bug them, and there's some people who don't really
Scott Hammond: They don't like that, that discretion.
Michael Fratkin: But the people, people in the families
that's real value. That I don't have to be super smart, to butt heads and push hard to get them what they need.
Scott Hammond: Squeak the wheel, get the grease.
Michael Fratkin: Exactly.
Scott Hammond: So tell, so you've attended how many deaths and,
Michael Fratkin: Oh, God, I don't know.
Scott Hammond: Have you ever– That's what floored me.
I, I realized, uh,We had a friend last night who lost her
Michael Fratkin: Mm.
Scott Hammond: Up in, um,
Grant's Pass.
Michael Fratkin: Mm.
Scott Hammond: She passed this… Anyway, so
a-and it hit me hard. I go, "You, you've experienced this not dozens, not even hundreds of times."
Michael Fratkin: I guess I would say, although these last few years I've
been in kind of less directly involved.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: But over the years, in this community,
I've been a part of teams that have cared for probably 5,000 people who've died.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: Which means that I've had something to do with maybe
3.5 other family members in association-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … with them.
Scott Hammond: So maybe 20,000 people.
Michael Fratkin: Maybe 20,000 people have-
Scott Hammond: Hm
Michael Fratkin: … some direct contact with-
Scott Hammond: Touch
Michael Fratkin: … the work that I've done, some touch from-
Scott Hammond: Huh
Michael Fratkin: … the work that I've done-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Fratkin: … in the community.
Scott Hammond: How does that feel?
Michael Fratkin: Makes me feel like I'm a part of the fabric of this place.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. 100% Humboldt, if you will.
Michael Fratkin: You might say that. [chuckles]
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah.
Michael Fratkin: No, it makes me feel like I, you know…
I, I drive through town, I made tons of home visits over many years, and as I drive through th-this actually, around the corner-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … I drive past a house that I served somebody, uh, in the last
part of their life. And, and if w- I go to the supermarket, I'm in Wildberries, and there's a, you know, two categories of people. There's people who come up to me in the produce section saying, "Thank you," and
they wanna-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … give me a hug, and then there's the other bunch of people
triggered by my presence, and they're rushing and hiding in the-
Scott Hammond: They're running away
Michael Fratkin: … pet food aisle to stay away from me.
Either way, I know that I've had some substantial or meaningful impact in this community.
Scott Hammond: Any regrets in-
Michael Fratkin: It's just awesome
Scott Hammond: … in that practice in, what is it, 20 years here?
Michael Fratkin: Thirty.
Scott Hammond: Thirty.
Michael Fratkin: Um,
no. I mean, there's, there's lessons I wished I'd learned the or third time rather than the fourth time.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Um-
Scott Hammond: So say we all. Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: There's
definitely choices that I made that I'd like
to back to the future and reverse them.
Scott Hammond: If we could, yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Um,
but no, I, I think I've been pretty earnest about picking myself up, uh, and being honest with
myself and-
Scott Hammond: Mm
Michael Fratkin: … figuring out the things that life
privilege of stepping into the bedside in those situations has, has wanted to teach me.
Scott Hammond: Earnest.
Michael Fratkin: I think I've been pretty good about it.
Scott Hammond: I like the word earnest. That's a good word. I, um…
So I just got back from my four- Speaking of 30 years at a reunion, from my 45th reunion of… They weren't, we weren't doctors, we were knuckleheads.
Michael Fratkin: Right.
Scott Hammond: From Sweetwater High School-
Michael Fratkin: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: … in National City, California.
And, uh, I was voted prettiest hair.
Michael Fratkin: You were not.
Scott Hammond: Oh, yeah, I had beautiful locks.
Michael Fratkin: Did you have a fro?
Scott Hammond: It's… No fro. Long hair.
Michael Fratkin: Okay. [chuckles]
Scott Hammond: Long and with blonde streaks, and I, I was all… Yeah, no jewfro.
[both laughing] Um, my friend had it. Philip had a nice jewfro.
Michael Fratkin: [chuckles]
Scott Hammond: But, uh, going back there and going t- with all the overweight, uh,
for, that are all 63 years old, and-
Michael Fratkin: Right
Scott Hammond: … it was really heartwarming. It
They were some wonderful friends and people that you lose track with, them every five years. But, um, I wanna hear your 30 year. So these are docs from medical school.
Michael Fratkin: So because I moved around so much as a kid, and because I came in
and out and in and out of college, changing my majors and everything else, was never really a cohort of students that I felt a part of
until we all walked in on day one of medical school, the, our hundred and whatever, 102 or 3 of us. Um, and we started, and we finished together, plus or minus a few,
uh-
Scott Hammond: How many dropped out?
Michael Fratkin: … absents.
Oh, I don't… Not too many dropped out.
There-
Scott Hammond: Oh.
Michael Fratkin: One or two of them got injured along the way and-
Scott Hammond: Physician
Michael Fratkin: … ended up taking an extra year.
drop out.
Scott Hammond: This is University of Utah, right?
Michael Fratkin: University of Utah, School of Medicine, top of the hill.
And-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Fratkin: … um, so I'd never been to a
reunion of any sort. And, uh, there's a little… I mean, Utah's an interesting place. You may have heard.
Scott Hammond: Most heavy Bor- heavy Mormon, yeah.
Michael Fratkin: I th- you may have heard about that.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. That, that's come up.
Michael Fratkin: Well, our, our medical school class was about 80%
married male Mormon missionaries with kids. And then there's the-
Scott Hammond: Men.
Michael Fratkin: The, men. Yeah, male.
Scott Hammond: A lot of abs are there.
[laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Um, and there was a crew of us that
about 20 of us.
Scott Hammond: You're the, you're the token guy with the fro.
Michael Fratkin: [laughs] Didn't, didn't really have a fro by that point.
I was cooler by medical school time.
Um, but yeah, no, we, we, the, the rest of us were sort of this eclectic mix of, uh, older students or students with different kind of unusual background and, uh, not a uniform sort of spiritual and religious kind of identity.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Fratkin: Um, so we hung out. So I've been in touch with
or six or seven of us, uh, on and off. We have a little ongoing funny text thread with each other. Um, but I'd never gone back to the reunions. Um, so I went this time, and it was under, uh, attended. There was only about nine of us that came in
person-
Scott Hammond: Huh
Michael Fratkin: … to the rubber chicken dinner at the hotel.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Fratkin: And then we got a little VRBO, the, our little crew of people.
Um-
Scott Hammond: Did your wife come with you?
Michael Fratkin: No, no, she didn't. She stayed home, she stayed home.
And, um, it was intimate. So out of 100 or so students in our class, we had the opportunity to actually pull off the… How do you say it?There's a tendency to wanna put your best foot forward and-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … be impressive and talk about how happy you are and-
Scott Hammond: And my kids
Michael Fratkin: … how great life is-
Scott Hammond: My Jag
Michael Fratkin: … and everything else. Well, we pulled the Band-Aid off of that one.
Scott Hammond: Good.
Michael Fratkin: And we started talking to each other.
And while I, my, my source of information is only this handful, what I can tell you is that two of us, uh, took their own lives somewhere along the One of them I discovered by reading about him as, uh, an example in a story in the, what's called Stat News, a medical journalism-
Scott Hammond: Huh
Michael Fratkin: … piece. I was reading along about the distress and
difficulties that, uh, COVID has placed on physicians.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: And, um, they're describing this guy
and his devastating kind of psychic experience being an emergency room
physician-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Fratkin: … through 2020 and 2021. They described how he
asked for relief from his supervisors. He asked for a change in his schedule. He asked for this, he asked for that, he asked for support, He didn't get much of any of that until he tried to kill himself, in his own ER. They admitted him for a couple of weeks, started him on medicines. He had left, and then f- three days later, he'd taken his own life.
Scott Hammond: Wow. Sad.
Michael Fratkin: Um, and this was a-
Scott Hammond: Sorry
Michael Fratkin: … just a beautiful guy.
Uh, and then discovered there was another, another one, uh, uh, at this event. Discovered that there were three or four others that died of medical illness.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Fratkin: Like, so what are you gonna do? Roll the dice.
This one had cancer, that one had this, that one had that. That, those were surprising sadnesses, right?
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Um, and then discovered that at least a couple of
spouses died of drug overdoses.
Scott Hammond: Huh.
Michael Fratkin: A guy I was sitting next to was telling me about his
24-year-old son who died of an overdose.
Scott Hammond: Hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Fentanyl inside of
crazy meth addiction and such.
Scott Hammond: Crazy.
Michael Fratkin: Um,
a couple of, three people that I heard about, uh, left medicine to go do something else.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: And so it had us all in this kind of-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … deeper reflective state and thinking-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … about what has been the nature of this
Oh, and one of them, uh, had this amazing story about delivering two orangutans at the zoo by cesarean section when he was on call for obstetrics.
Scott Hammond: Sweet. Good story.
Michael Fratkin: That's, yeah, so that was your regular-
Scott Hammond: A vet story [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: … kind of reunion story. They called him from the hospital
needed help down there.
Scott Hammond: He went down quick.
Michael Fratkin: So he delivered a couple of orangutan babies
by cesarean section. Crazy.
Um-
Scott Hammond: There's some movie like that where the couples get back together
on life, and it's one-
Michael Fratkin: It's complicated.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, it's co- it's real complicated.
They all had drama and different things that happened, name of that movie. Um, it's like 10, 20 years ago, but they come, come back together and-
Michael Fratkin: Mm
Scott Hammond: … obviously I've watched the movie a lot.
Michael Fratkin: Mm-hmm. [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Um, but it, it's, it's all that, um… it's life.
I, I really see that-
Michael Fratkin: It's life
Scott Hammond: … anymore that's-
Michael Fratkin: So that was what was great about my 30th reunion-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … is that we actually really dropped in.
Like I didn't, I, you know, when I look in the mirror, I have this sort of internal algorithm kind of software system that makes me feel like I pretty much look the same as I always did.
Scott Hammond: You do. You look great.
Michael Fratkin: But I, no, I know.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: That's what it looks like-
Scott Hammond: I know
Michael Fratkin: … when I look in the mirror.
Scott Hammond: I get that a lot.
Michael Fratkin: I got it all worked out.
Scott Hammond: That's how I got it.
Michael Fratkin: But then I look to all of these other people,
[laughs]
Scott Hammond: It's crazy.
Michael Fratkin: My algorithm doesn't really-
Scott Hammond: What happened to you, bro?
Michael Fratkin: … help them.
Scott Hammond: You're, you're so gross.
Michael Fratkin: So yeah, so it's-
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: … it, it, it had me come home,
um, a little bit more
viscerally thinking about aging. I'm 61 years old.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: I feel great. Um, I got a lot of juice
left in me.
Scott Hammond: Nice.
Michael Fratkin: Um,
but it's a thing, this getting older thing and this sort of-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … the, the more, uh, concrete reality of
aging and mortality is-
Scott Hammond: Got it
Michael Fratkin: … is real. It's real.
Scott Hammond: Drove all around San Diego all, to all the old landmarks, the,
restaurants, the, the beach, this place where we smoked weed-
Michael Fratkin: Mm-hmm
Scott Hammond: … you know, to,
to the, to the beaches, to Balboa Park, and, and all of it had significance, and, um, I purposed not to get too
reminiscent and, but to really kinda be in the moment it was fun. But yeah, I think it all, also-
Michael Fratkin: But there's a, there's a little something, like, oh.
Scott Hammond: It all, it comes, comes to some e- realization of aging,
Michael Fratkin: It's real
Scott Hammond: … no one gets out of here alive, turns out.
So.
Michael Fratkin: Turns out that's a throwaway line, and it turns out it's
actually a description of the, the kind of semi-hidden and plain sight reality.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Fratkin: We all live our lives, and probably ought to, as if it
goes on forever.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Um,
but there's something
profoundly appropriate that we don't go on forever.
Scott Hammond: Right. Yeah. So I have a bank president friend
he's a great guy, and he, he, he doesn't pray for healing anymore. He prays for quality days. May your days be amazing, and just live in, in that minute and that moment and that day. And I thought-
Michael Fratkin: Right
Scott Hammond: … John, that's a cool prayer, man.
I, I'm gonna pray that prayer, 'cause that's
so powerful.
Michael Fratkin: Mm-hmm.
Scott Hammond: You know?
Michael Fratkin: Mm-hmm.
Scott Hammond: And so, uh, w- let, let's go there. What, what are the,
top three takeaways?
Michael Fratkin: We're there.
Scott Hammond: No, what are your three takeaways for living
Michael Fratkin: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: What, what, what works for you when you,
You mentioned the awe earlier. What-
Michael Fratkin: Oh, just let it in
Scott Hammond: … what do you-
Michael Fratkin: Let it in. It's everywhere. It's in the grain-
Scott Hammond: Of this table. It's in the sweetness of this water.
It's in the [sighs] empty-
Michael Fratkin: Dixie cup
Scott Hammond: … red Dixie cup that I have here.
Michael Fratkin: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: It used to have a little bit of cactus juice in it.
Um, it's in your eyes,
and mine, and it's, it's right here in this present moment.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Presence.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: So that's, I guess, number one.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: I have to come up with two more?
Michael Fratkin: Um, yeah, that's one. I'm feeling-
Scott Hammond: Presence
Michael Fratkin: … the table. I'm just, I'm getting into the table.
Scott Hammond: You feeling it? [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: It's nice, huh? [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Nick did a really nice table here.
S- somebody commented that on the last podcast. They … "This is a great, this is really… I can smell it's a really fresh table."
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: So he was in the, whoever that was, was in the moment.
Scott Hammond: So number two.
Oh, the love that you can gather in your life, true, and deep, and honest, and authentic.
Michael Fratkin: Mm.
Scott Hammond: And all the many different ways that love can be exchanged between
beings.
Michael Fratkin: Mm-hmm.
Scott Hammond: In laughter, in love, in sex, in friendship.
Michael Fratkin: Touch.
Scott Hammond: All of it.
Michael Fratkin: Thankfulness.
Scott Hammond: All of it.
Michael Fratkin: Gratitude.
Scott Hammond: So participating fully-
Michael Fratkin: Mm
Scott Hammond: … in the economy and exchange of love-
Michael Fratkin: Mm
Scott Hammond: … for other human beings.
Michael Fratkin: Well said.
Scott Hammond: Um, presence, love.
Play.
Michael Fratkin: Play.
Scott Hammond: Have a blast as much as possible. Laugh.
Michael Fratkin: Have some fun?
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Have-
Michael Fratkin: Yeah
Scott Hammond: … some bloody fun.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: I love it.
Scott Hammond: I mean, be respectful of the other people around
Michael Fratkin: Sure.
Scott Hammond: You don't wanna, like, step on their toes
having fun.
Michael Fratkin: Not necessary.
Scott Hammond: But it's not really necessary.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. You can actually call them,
and mud together [laughs] and have fun with some people.
Michael Fratkin: [laughs] We're gonna go get muddy.
[laughs] It's awe-
Scott Hammond: Apparently, that happened a few weeks ago out in, uh,
Desert.
Michael Fratkin: Oh, really? They got muddy?
Scott Hammond: They got muddy.
Michael Fratkin: Yep, I bet they did.
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Who doesn't?
Scott Hammond: Well, it's part of that show. [bell dings]
Michael Fratkin: What? Did I win?
Scott Hammond: That was the bell. Yeah, you-
Michael Fratkin: I won?
Scott Hammond: Let's see.
Michael Fratkin: What did I win?
Scott Hammond: Oh, there's a prize in here for you.
So-
Michael Fratkin: Oh, my goodness
Scott Hammond: … so this is the Humboldt quiz.
Michael Fratkin: Mm.
Scott Hammond: Because there's,
there's a fabulous prize in my box here.
And, um-
Michael Fratkin: In that Dick Taylor bag maybe?
Scott Hammond: My bag, yeah. Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: What could possibly be in there?
Scott Hammond: Um,
well, uh, maybe a sticker.
Michael Fratkin: [laughs] Could be a sticker.
Scott Hammond: [laughs] You put on your car.
Michael Fratkin: Lollipop maybe.
Scott Hammond: Lollipop. [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Balloon.
Scott Hammond: [laughs] Some, some, uh, Cracker Jack.
Michael Fratkin: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: So i- when, when you get to go out to,
hit you with some, a credit card, whatever, money, where would you take your sweetheart? Where do you guys go to dinner? If you could go anywhere in Humboldt.
Michael Fratkin: I'm going to dinner.
Scott Hammond: Are you really?
Michael Fratkin: Yeah, with my sweetheart, and with, uh, two of our best friends.
Scott Hammond: Nice.
Michael Fratkin: Um, and so that's the, that's what comes to mind.
Scott Hammond: Where are you going?
Michael Fratkin: I usually go to, like, Jaffe's.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: And I go to, like-
Scott Hammond: Jaffe's
Michael Fratkin: … Pho, Pho, Pha, Pha-
Scott Hammond: The one in Arcata
Michael Fratkin: … in Arcata.
Scott Hammond: Are those still good?
Michael Fratkin: Those are like my two, they're probably-
Scott Hammond: Those are still good?
Michael Fratkin: … more than anywhere else.
Scott Hammond: Good.
Michael Fratkin: They're awesome. They're awesome.
Scott Hammond: Good.
Michael Fratkin: Totally reliable and consistent.
But tonight we're going to 511 right down the street.
Scott Hammond: Sweet. Delicious.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Nice. What do you have at 511? What do you,
Michael Fratkin: Don't they have, like, calamari? They should have calamari.
Scott Hammond: They have, they have filet-
Michael Fratkin: And they have, like-
Scott Hammond: Calamari, yeah
Michael Fratkin: … uh, do they have Casamigos Reposado Tequila?
Scott Hammond: Almost, almost certainly for you.
Michael Fratkin: Oh, good. [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Reposado. Mucho gusto, amigo. [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Uh, so number two, you get to go for a hike tomorrow
Michael Fratkin: Bull Creek.
Scott Hammond: Wolf Creek?
Michael Fratkin: Bull Creek.
Scott Hammond: Bull Creek, okay.
Michael Fratkin: Bull Creek blows my mind.
Scott Hammond: That's SoHum.
Michael Fratkin: Um, it's on the way to SoHum.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Let me show you where it is.
Michael Fratkin: Okay. [laughs] You put it on the map.
Scott Hammond: For you folks that are not familiar with Humboldt-
Michael Fratkin: Over there
Scott Hammond: … th- and this never gets old. Nick,
It's, uh, it's down in here in SoHum.
Michael Fratkin: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Bull Creek. It's, it's, you're looking right at it.
Michael Fratkin: I'm looking right at it actually.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: I see it. I see it.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, Joanie's ran out there. She li-
right?
Michael Fratkin: It's so beautiful.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Such a beautiful, mature-
Scott Hammond: And that road is all jacked up now
Michael Fratkin: … stable… Yeah, 'cause the trees came down
it all fig- figured out. And Bull Creek is a special place, so don't go there.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, don't.
Michael Fratkin: 'Cause I like it when there's nobody there but me.
Scott Hammond: The weather here is horrible, folks. It's ri- it's snowing today.
Michael Fratkin: It's fi- [laughs]
Scott Hammond: It's one, one of the most magic days in Humboldt.
Michael Fratkin: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: It's, like, 80.
Michael Fratkin: Oh my God, I'm sweating in here.
Scott Hammond: It's crazy.
Michael Fratkin: Did you know? Did, did you know it's hot in here?
Scott Hammond: I, I actually, I think I dressed for it, so.
Michael Fratkin: Well, you have two layers.
Scott Hammond: It is. Yeah. Well, the, the other is my, my Mormon T-shirt.
Michael Fratkin: What is, what is… Is that a Mormon T-shirt?
Scott Hammond: No, it's not. [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Oh my God.
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: So, I mean, what is the deal? Well, who wears T-shirts? Does…
Nick, do you wear a T-shirt?
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Nick has one on.
Michael Fratkin: Nick gets a T-shirt. Yeah, but I mean, and then another shirt on.
Scott Hammond: Well, I didn't wanna wear my shirts.
Michael Fratkin: I thought it was sort of redundant.
Scott Hammond: Well, if you're a hairy beast like you and I,
I mean, otherwise-
Michael Fratkin: I've never worn an undershirt.
Scott Hammond: An undershirt.
Michael Fratkin: It's just not my thing.
Scott Hammond: Okay.
Michael Fratkin: It just seems overkill.
Scott Hammond: Like-
Michael Fratkin: Same thing with underwear.
Scott Hammond: Oh, you're, uh, flying free.
Michael Fratkin: No, I'm not.
Scott Hammond: Okay. [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Actually, that's a lie. I actually do wear underwear.
Scott Hammond: Oh. [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Just, I think.
Scott Hammond: Remember the Seinfeld-
Michael Fratkin: Bad idea
Scott Hammond: … episode with, um, Kramer? Uh, just nothing between us and the,
him and a thin g- layer of gabardine. [laughs] Good one. So-
Michael Fratkin: Uh, did I win?
Scott Hammond: Uh, not yet.
Michael Fratkin: Okay. Cool.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, there's still more quiz questions coming.
So, um, what's a magic day in Humboldt? Where, where, what would you do, besides Bull Creek? What, how would you spend your day? Just a day that, a Michael day.
Michael Fratkin: Oh, gosh. A Michael day.
Scott Hammond: Self, self-care day.
Michael Fratkin: Occurs
essentially in my beautiful home. I mean, I, I bought a piece of property, uh, on the way up to Kneeland.
Scott Hammond: Nice.
Michael Fratkin: In Greenwood Heights.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: It's five acres.
Scott Hammond: Beautiful area.
Michael Fratkin: I've been ma- I was married in that home.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: And my children were born in that home.
I buried a couple of other friends-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Fratkin: … on the property. I've had amazing music,
spectacular parties over the years. So my perfect dayIs I wake up before everybody else, like an hour and a half before everybody else,
coffee-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … go out to my little man cave, which
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … where nobody can bother me.
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Make some coffee, have at least one cup, maybe get into the
second cup before I go in and jump aboard the whole-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … train to get everybody at school
Then I get rid of them all.
Scott Hammond: [laughs] They're all gone.
Michael Fratkin: They all go to work, and they all go to school,
uh, door open, cat's on my lap.
Scott Hammond: Huh.
Michael Fratkin: And, uh, and I love my forest,
so working in the yard and doing lots of things.
Scott Hammond: Is there a hot tub involved in this?
Michael Fratkin: No hot tub.
Scott Hammond: No.
Michael Fratkin: Like, every time I had a hot tub,
Scott Hammond: It's gross.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah. Or, or rats eat the wires
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: But I- I've had like two or three different ones.
Scott Hammond: It goes green.
Michael Fratkin: It goes green. You know, I don't think I could-
Scott Hammond: It does turn green. You have to be careful
Michael Fratkin: … I'm not a, not like a maintenance guy.
Um-
Scott Hammond: It's overrated
Michael Fratkin: … water testing kind of-
Scott Hammond: Who wants to put oil in a car?
Michael Fratkin: I'm just not really into it. That's why I got an electric car. No oil.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, that's right. [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Don't forget to charge. [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: That I don't do.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. Yeah, I understand.
Michael Fratkin: Did I win?
Scott Hammond: You did. You did great.
Michael Fratkin: I won.
Scott Hammond: Let's see. Oh, there's a-
Michael Fratkin: Yay
Scott Hammond: … there is a small prize involved.
Michael Fratkin: Oh.
Scott Hammond: Oh.
Michael Fratkin: It's a sticker.
Scott Hammond: Look at that. Would you-
Michael Fratkin: It's just a… [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Are you kidding?
Michael Fratkin: It's just a sticker.
Scott Hammond: Yeah. It's good for something.
Michael Fratkin: Oh, no.
Scott Hammond: I'll, I'll, uh-
Michael Fratkin: All right
Scott Hammond: … just give that.
Michael Fratkin: No, thanks.
Scott Hammond: Can I slide that over to you?
Michael Fratkin: Definitely.
Scott Hammond: There. You, you can wear that with pride.
Michael Fratkin: Okay.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, great, great chocolate.
Michael Fratkin: Boom.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: There's no chocolate in that bag?
Scott Hammond: Well, it, it remains to be seen. [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: Let's see how you… Hit the bell again.
Scott Hammond: Let's-
Michael Fratkin: Ask me another question
Scott Hammond: … let's see how you do.
Michael Fratkin: Oh, my God.
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: What's left?
Scott Hammond: [laughs] There should be some chocolate.
Michael Fratkin: I gotta bring the chocolate to my wife.
Scott Hammond: Should be the chocolate time.
Michael Fratkin: It's her favorite.
Scott Hammond: They're up in Seattle right now competing for the first time since
the, the, uh, chocolate, um, Chocolate Championship of the World.
Michael Fratkin: They're gonna do great.
Scott Hammond: Oh.
Michael Fratkin: They're gonna win, uh, gold.
Scott Hammond: They-
Michael Fratkin: Gold medal
Scott Hammond: … they, they're amazing.
Michael Fratkin: Mm-hmm.
Scott Hammond: Just good guys and really cool. So, uh, w-
Care. So you-
Michael Fratkin: Oh, yeah
Scott Hammond: … all this, uh, career, and then you started Resolution Care.
Michael Fratkin: Crazy.
Scott Hammond: And tell us about, what, what was that?
Michael Fratkin: Ku- Kukuchu. Uh, that was, um-
Scott Hammond: It's remo- It's re- doing what you do remotely, right?
Michael Fratkin: So in 2014,
on the strength of burnout and frustration and indignation and complaining and whining and ranting and raving about every- everything is so broken and screwed up, and what's needed is so simple.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Um,
I took my one step up to the plate and built a business.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: And so Resolution Care,
uh, was a team-based, comprehensive palliative care program giving care to human beings in their homes using whatever means for communication worked-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … uh, including video conferencing, which-
Scott Hammond: Zooming today
Michael Fratkin: … what we call Zooming today.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Fratkin: Um,
and I was the first to do it. Nobody else around the country had really figured out that it could be useful.
Scott Hammond: Is that all telemedicine? Is that falling under a telemedicine
Michael Fratkin: Yeah, sure.
Scott Hammond: It could be the phone. It could be the internet.
It could be-
Michael Fratkin: We call that telehealth, which is-
Scott Hammond: … FaceTime, whatever you want
Michael Fratkin: … broadly includes all the other different
synchronous and asynchronous communication. So texting is asynchronous, or sending messages or emails, that's asynchronous.
Scott Hammond: Okay.
Michael Fratkin: Using voice messaging and sending those off,
Communication happening at two different times.
Scott Hammond: So what, but it's two-
Michael Fratkin: But phone calls and video conferencing-
Scott Hammond: Okay
Michael Fratkin: … those are synchronous. Those things are happening in real-
Scott Hammond: Time
Michael Fratkin: … time.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: And so I, I pioneered the use of video
conferencing, uh, based communication-
Scott Hammond: Oh
Michael Fratkin: … to provide care for super-duper sick
Scott Hammond: Right. Right. So-
Michael Fratkin: And so we started that.
Um, timing was excellent. Society thought that palliative care ought to grow. Um, there were, uh, a number of legislative and policy-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … um, opportunities. Uh, the state of California mandated
palliative care for all Medi-Cal recipients in the state at about the
same time.
Scott Hammond: Wow. Perfect.
Michael Fratkin: And we happened to have,
I think it's pretty safe to say, the absolute best Medicaid managed care organization working to care for low-income folks in our community. The Partnership Health Plan is a fantastic-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … health plan, a nonprofit health plan-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … focused on the care of people depending on
Scott Hammond: Are they right over here in Sacred Heart, or is that where they were?
Michael Fratkin: Well, they're here, they're there, they're, they've got-
Scott Hammond: They have offices everywhere
Michael Fratkin: … they're, they're, they, they now have 14 counties.
Scott Hammond: Oh.
Michael Fratkin: Del Norte, Humboldt, Mendocino, uh, the other
ones. [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Yeah. The other, the other counties.
Michael Fratkin: In the nor- In the nor- In the 101 corridor, Lake
County. Um, but in January, I think, of this next year, are being given to them so they can manage the Medicaid lives-
Scott Hammond: Wow
Michael Fratkin: … in those counties. So they have a- about
750, um, thousand
members.
Scott Hammond: So our son Gabriel's Medicare, Medi-Cal.
He's got Downs and autism, so he would-
Michael Fratkin: Yeah, yeah
Scott Hammond: … he's part of Partnership.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah, and-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … you know, say what you want about, you know,
but Partnership shows up, and they innovate, and they work
together-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … with their provider partners,
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … to develop programs that deliver
for the people under care-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … for the health plan, and for the providers.
I mean, you gotta balance it out for it to be
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Everybody's gotta get their needs met in a balanced and reciprocal
fashion, right?
Scott Hammond: Shout out to Partnership.
Michael Fratkin: Shout out to Partnership.
Scott Hammond: Right on. So, k- uh, question then.
So did Resolution Care-
Michael Fratkin: Oh
Scott Hammond: … then replicate its model for other places
and-
Michael Fratkin: Well, I mean, they were one of our health plan partners
Scott Hammond: … universities?
Michael Fratkin: They were our most important one. They were, um, working together with
the California Healthcare Foundation to develop, uh, payer-provider partnerships and some grant-funded things that got us started. But-
Scott Hammond: So the model was replicatable.
Michael Fratkin: The model, we proved that it was replicatable.
Uh, and, uh, to do that, it took about five, five and a half years to figure out how to do it right so that I wasn't-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … spending more money than I took in, right?
Scott Hammond: Right. Right.
Michael Fratkin: So when you're spending more money than you take in-
Scott Hammond: It's not good
Michael Fratkin: … you need to either have a ton of money of
borrow money-
Scott Hammond: Or get, get some money
Michael Fratkin: … or get some money from other people.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: So in order to make it work over those years-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: I borrowed about a million and a half dollars from people who loved
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: People,
uh, a couple of them were related to me. Not many of them, but, um-
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: But people that loved the work that we were doing,
um, who pretty much figured that, uh, they flushed their money down the toilet. [laughs]
Scott Hammond: Oh, no.
Michael Fratkin: But coming into the pandemic in the middle of 2021,
um, it turned out-
Scott Hammond: Yeah, what did the pandemic do to the model?
Michael Fratkin: Well, I mean, it proved the model.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Fratkin: I mean-
Scott Hammond: Yeah, it would
Michael Fratkin: … we, we were, uh, on May 19th, or March 19th,
2020, uh, we were about 40% video conferencing for On March 20th, 2020, we were 100%.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: And our team, our staff, our amazing,
incredible people-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … they, they were, they, uh, they, they had to adjust to it for a
second, and for the first few months they complaining, "Oh, how can we possibly care for these
Scott Hammond: Right
Michael Fratkin: … "without ever laying our hands on them?
How will they know that we really are there for them?" And then after about three months-
Scott Hammond: Huh
Michael Fratkin: … they stopped talking about that.
Scott Hammond: So COVID proved the model.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah, so it w- and, and-
Scott Hammond: Crazy, huh?
Michael Fratkin: … all around the country, people were asking us, "How do you do it?
How do you do it?" So I did a lot of teaching during the first couple of years the pandemic throughout the state of California and nationally about how do you make this kind of telemedicine model-
Scott Hammond: Right
Michael Fratkin: … human, personal, soulful, relational?
Uh, how do you take advantage of the So I talked a lot about telehealth for a long time.
Scott Hammond: Were you able to put it in a package and then
sell it, give it away?
Michael Fratkin: Well, I-
Scott Hammond: Model it?
Michael Fratkin: I, because I owed a billion
fund, I wasn't gonna give it away. Um-
Scott Hammond: Right
Michael Fratkin: … so I had to, like, sell it. And-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … um, in the pandemic, um, a couple of potential
buyers for the enterprise came our way.
Scott Hammond: Nice.
Michael Fratkin: Um,
and, uh, I made a deal.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: And I sold it to the company that, uh, changed its name from Resolution
Care.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Um, and was able to call up all
those people who were dumb enough to lend me money-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … and say, "Hey, guess what? Friday afternoon at 2:00,
Scott Hammond: Good on you, man.
Michael Fratkin: "It's coming in with all the interest I promised you."
Scott Hammond: Payback.
Michael Fratkin: And so I took a job with them for about a year and a half.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: And, um,
uh, we parted ways at the end of last year,
am free.
Scott Hammond: Huh. Does that mean you're working
Michael Fratkin: Yes.
[laughs]
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: It does.
Scott Hammond: The answer's yes.
Michael Fratkin: It means I'm doing both. [laughs] Um-
Scott Hammond: You can do a little bit of both.
Michael Fratkin: Well, uh, you know, for, for a minute I really wasn't,
identity crisis, like, "Oh my goodness, I miss all these people."
Scott Hammond: I bet you did, yeah.
Michael Fratkin: "I miss, I miss this, th- this particular
project. I miss the, the role of leader-"
Scott Hammond: Who am I? What do I want?
Michael Fratkin: "… cheerleader."
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Um,
but then I started to look around and, and kind of went back to the things that I've been most fascinated and awe-inspired by. And for the last 20, 25 years, I've been trying to build a bridge between
community-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … and the, uh, brave souls that were, uh,
pioneering, uh, psychedelic science research.
Scott Hammond: Hmm. Ketamine?
Michael Fratkin: Um, well, prior to that-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … there, uh, uh, in NYU and Johns Hopkins and in UCLA, there
early trials looking at the classical psychedelics, like, uh, mushrooms or psilocybin-
Scott Hammond: Uh-huh
Michael Fratkin: … LSD, MDMA. Uh, the MAPS studies were
maturing around MDMA or the dr- drug that the kids call Molly or Ecstasy-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … uh, for the treatment of post-traumatic stress
And all of those, all that science and clinical research was very slow to start, but once it got a head of steam, established an, an enormous amount of momentum because it's safe. It's more effective than anything we've ever seen.
Um-
Scott Hammond: They say, they say it works.
Michael Fratkin: It works.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Um,
so I was trying to bring those researchers together with, uh, with the world of palliative care, and the world of palliative care and just about everything in medicine is incredibly conservative.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: So it took a long time, but with Michael Pollan's book,
Mind, and the m- uh, Netflix series, How to Change Your Mind by Michael
Pollan-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … and a lot of, uh, kind of generational transformation-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … um, the, the minds of the American
populace are open to answers that can respond to the mental health challenges that we all face and the pain and suffering that people have.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Fratkin: And they're not, uh, naturally or viscerally afraid-
Scott Hammond: Right
Michael Fratkin: … of the idea of, um, how we might be able to use
extraordinary states of consciousness, non-ordinary states of consciousness-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … as an opportunity to heal.
Scott Hammond: I think of early medical marijuana and the,
Michael Fratkin: Similar process.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Similar process with-
Scott Hammond: It helps people
Michael Fratkin: … but these, these are even more mysterious compounds.
Scott Hammond: Correct, yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Um, the experiences occasioned by these
alter a person's perception and experience-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … of reality, of life, of the world. It's a big deal.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Um, I think that people who are approaching the end of
struggling inside of that-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … should have access to these medicines.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: I think people who are well who wanna get more well should
to these medicines-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … in different ways. So right now, there's a
radical change in how healthcare is perceiving psychedelics, and I'm involved in that.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: Locally, I'm working at the Center for New Growth,
practice, uh, kind of organically grown by, uh, Dr.
Uh-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … she, you should have on the show.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: She's, she's super great.
Scott Hammond: I think I talked to her.
Michael Fratkin: You did?
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Here?
Scott Hammond: Uh, no, I called her.
Michael Fratkin: Oh, yeah. Well, you should do, talk to her here with the microphones-
Scott Hammond: Sure
Michael Fratkin: … and the headphones and everything.
Scott Hammond: With these?
Michael Fratkin: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Maybe I'd have a chocolate bar for her?
Michael Fratkin: She… Yeah, maybe.
Scott Hammond: And a sticker?
Michael Fratkin: There is a choc-
Scott Hammond: We'll see [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: … a stick- it's a sticker in there, isn't it?
That's all there is, is just stickers.
Scott Hammond: I, it's, it's, it's remar- well-
Michael Fratkin: Oh my God
Scott Hammond: … it's, it's hard to say right now.
Michael Fratkin: No, but she'll, she can talk more and open up, kind of.
Scott Hammond: She opened up that center, though, and it-
Michael Fratkin: She opened it up, and, and in fact, we, uh,
afternoon, although this is gonna be a delay for people.
Scott Hammond: Sure.
Michael Fratkin: Um, but, uh, we have a new office
uh-Uh, so, uh, Spa Social or Social
Spa-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … um, uh, in Arcata. A much groovier
environment.
Scott Hammond: Social Spa.
Michael Fratkin: Um, and we're working in collaboration with a
of Humboldt-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … the Open Door Clinic, the PACE program-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … the VA Medical Clinic, to try and create ways to give
access to ketamine-assisted psychotherapy.
Scott Hammond: This is ketamine feat-focused for now.
Michael Fratkin: Only. Only because that's all that's-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … legal at the moment. And-
Scott Hammond: How's ketamine work, in your view?
Michael Fratkin: It's such a complic- We could talk for an hour about-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … the, the s-
Scott Hammond: But the trials and-
Michael Fratkin: Interesting
Scott Hammond: … studies are pretty conclusive, right?
Michael Fratkin: Oh, it's, it's, it's, it's so compelling.
Um-
Scott Hammond: In England, Joni was listening to a podcast and …
Michael Fratkin: Ketamine, in combination with a
strong therapeutic alliance-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … and, uh, a psychotherapeutic model-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … that places the healing
over there-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … in the person-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … is a powerful
intervention that surprised me.
Scott Hammond: Wow.
Michael Fratkin: Um, I thought that it wasn't really a psychedelic-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … or it wasn't really in the same category
catalyst for healing-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … as some of these other medicines
it is. And used well and thoughtfully inside of a container, um-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … that sets intention and works to integrate the
experience, it's amazing, um, breakthrough-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … powerful healing.
Scott Hammond: Learned a little bit about it.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah.
Scott Hammond: Sounds, sounds amazing.
Michael Fratkin: It is. It is.
Scott Hammond: Yeah, had a couple friends. Hey, before we go-
Michael Fratkin: Yeah
Scott Hammond: … which means we're going. Um, what do, what,
what do you want your tombstone to say? What, what are we gonna say at your, at your memorial? What, what do you envision? What would you like? First of all, what, what are the words on the tombstone?
Michael Fratkin: Ah. [laughs]
I don't know how you spell that.
Scott Hammond: How do you spell it? I think it's-
Michael Fratkin: I don't know. Maybe-
Scott Hammond: … it's A and a bunch of As.
Michael Fratkin: Maybe you have to put a little speaker up-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … to say. But no, I just wanna get to the end of my life
and feel like my tank's on E.
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.
Michael Fratkin: But I got
exactly where I needed to be. I just wanna be able to just go,
"Ah."
Scott Hammond: Nice.
Michael Fratkin: "I have lived my life."
Scott Hammond: Left it on the field.
Michael Fratkin: Psh.
Scott Hammond: Good word. Good one.
Michael Fratkin: Exactly.
Scott Hammond: I love it. And I hate to talk about legacy 'cause
but, um, so when we think of you-
Michael Fratkin: This podcast, this is my legacy. This will last forever in-
Scott Hammond: It could, it could be well-
Michael Fratkin: … digital perpetuity thanks to Nick.
Scott Hammond: It'll, it'll be on [laughs] YouTube.
Michael Fratkin: [laughs]
Scott Hammond: If, if Nick has anything to do with this,
Michael Fratkin: No, my legacy is, is in all of the
people I've cared for, all the people I've taught-
Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm
Michael Fratkin: … uh, my children, my wife-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … my garden.
Scott Hammond: Connection, relationships.
Michael Fratkin: All, you know, all of,
all of what I've left behind that resonates in other beings when I no longer am a being.
Scott Hammond: Good word.
Michael Fratkin: That's, that's how it wor- That's actually is how it works.
Scott Hammond: That's how it works.
Michael Fratkin: You know? And, and whatever's created in hard
stuff like concrete and buildings, and-
Scott Hammond: Hmm
Michael Fratkin: … you know, stories that I, you know,
captured in some kind of Word document or whatever, I don't know.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Uh, the ideas that I had are not,
they're not so special as to merit-
Scott Hammond: Huh
Michael Fratkin: … a great book-
Scott Hammond: Yeah
Michael Fratkin: … that changes the world. I'd write a book if I thought I could
hasn't been written before.
Scott Hammond: Right.
Michael Fratkin: But I'm living a life that's never been lived before.
Scott Hammond: Ooh.
Michael Fratkin: And that's gonna have an impact on people.
Scott Hammond: Good one. I like it. So the, the idea of a, a relationship
investment versus a printed word or a v- a how-to
video.
Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: Yeah. Doesn't mean much to me, actually.
Scott Hammond: I like it.
Michael Fratkin: You know?
Scott Hammond: I like it. Well, thanks for coming, man.
Michael Fratkin: Pleasure.
Scott Hammond: It's great to see you again.
Michael Fratkin: Thanks for having me. I really do.
Scott Hammond: Thanks.
Michael Fratkin: Is there a chocolate in that chocolate bag?
Scott Hammond: We're gonna see here in a minute-
Michael Fratkin: Oh, come on
Scott Hammond: … when we're off camera.
Michael Fratkin: Off camera.
Scott Hammond: [laughs]
Michael Fratkin: You don't want people to expect that there's a chocolate in there.
Scott Hammond: You know, I-
Michael Fratkin: You want people to stay and be surprised-
Scott Hammond: We're gonna just-
Michael Fratkin: … about the whole thing.
Scott Hammond: Yeah.
Michael Fratkin: All right.
Scott Hammond: I'll surprise you in a minute.
Michael Fratkin: [laughs] Thank you, Scott.
Scott Hammond: Thanks for coming, Michael.
Michael Fratkin: Thank you, Nick.