#43. John Packer’s Tapestry of Service: From Oakland Streets to Humboldt’s Heart of Law

Scott Hammond: Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls of all ages, it's Scott Hammond and 100% Humboldt with my new best friend, John Packer.

John Packer: Hi. New best friend.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Okay.

Scott Hammond: You can be my old best friend.

John Packer: Okay, old best friend.

Scott Hammond: You can be my friend, John Packer.

John Packer: My-

Scott Hammond: How's it going?

John Packer: It's going good. It's going real good today.

Scott Hammond: Good. Good. Uh, so tell us the John Packer story. Unpack the Packer story from be- You know, how'd you get to Humboldt? I realize you're from Oakland, correct?

John Packer: Oakland, California.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Yes, yes. Gunshot capital of California.

Scott Hammond: That's right. Just there.

John Packer: Now, not then. I was there a couple weeks ago, too. It was interesting.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Not my Oakland.

Scott Hammond: It's different.

John Packer: It is, it is different. It is different. I actually went by the, uh, the infamous now, uh, In-N-Out Burger that was closed down because they were getting robbed every day or something

John Packer: like that.

Scott Hammond: Oh, right.

John Packer: And went to the, uh, the chicken place right next to it.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

John Packer: And I was with the Boy Scouts, actually.

John Packer: And, uh, hop out of the van in my Boy Scout uniform, armed guard comes up and goes, "You, you guys can't come in." We're like, "Well, what's going on?" He says, "Well, we get robbed, so you can't come in. Uh, they're closed. You can only go through the line with cash only with a card." And, and so we-

Scott Hammond: Wow

John Packer: … we got chicken that way, but anyway. Uh, no, my, I came to Humboldt County in a couple, couple different manners. So, so first of all, unbeknownst to me, I had been introduced to Humboldt County because my family, even though we were growing up in Oakland, um, my dad worked for Challenge Dairymen's

John Packer: Association.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

John Packer: So we're a Challenge family, which made us teamsters. My dad's a mechanic. He and a buddy of his named Bob Jones, um, would flip trucks when trucks broke

John Packer: down.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

John Packer: And, uh, and so our family had been up here. Or not my, or f- uh, my dad had been up here. My, my mom hadn't. And, um, and so I was, I, I knew of Humboldt County as w- the place where my dad would go to, to get some work done and come back.

Scott Hammond: 'Cause Challenge was based in Fern Bridge? Or was that a challenge?

John Packer: Uh, Challenge… You know, you know, to this day, and we'll talk about this a little bit later, I think, uh, Challenge Dairymen's Association is a group of independent

John Packer: dairymen-

Scott Hammond: Okay

John Packer: … throughout Humboldt County. So I still hunt some of the fields that were Challenge Dairymen, uh, fields back in the day. They have cattle now.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

John Packer: So dairy cows, but-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

John Packer: … so I still, still, um, I've met those families or some of those families or-

Scott Hammond: So bird, birds-

John Packer: … the kids of those families

Scott Hammond: … bird hunting?

John Packer: Bird hunting, yeah, yeah. Geese.

John Packer: Geese love-

Scott Hammond: I know you and my son-in-law Matt hunt together

John Packer: … cattle. Yes. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: We hunt. Is he, is he a good hunter, by the way?

John Packer: He is very good.

Scott Hammond: Is he good?

John Packer: Yes, he is. Yes, he is. I've seen a lot worse, and I've seen very few. He's very good.

Scott Hammond: Shout out, Matt Mulaney. What's up?

John Packer: Yes.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, no, he's, uh, he's good at whatever he puts his hand to.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: So I knew about Humboldt County in that respect, although I couldn't have told you Humboldt County. And, um, so born and raised in Oakland. My sisters will tell you that my parents picked up the wrong kid from the hospital- Because there is not one, one gene of city kid in me at all. I mean, they, they would have to explain why their brother… You were at church, like, "Where's your brother?"

Scott Hammond: You're in the right county.

John Packer: I'm in the right county.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Yeah. Yeah, he's over at some place called Yuba City, putting in-

Scott Hammond: Where's that?

John Packer: Yeah. Putting in cattle enclosures and getting paid for it. Oh, he's a, he's a wrangler out in s- And so about fifth grade, um, one of our teachers, um, believes the Oakland Public School system moves up to what at that point in time, um, becomes Enterprise.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: Uh, so Enterprise is a new city, um, a suburb of,

John Packer: of-

Scott Hammond: Redding

John Packer: … Redding.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Right? And so about junior high, Tyrone Hopper, there's a great name for a, a, a discussion. Tyrone Hopper and I, um, throw our backpacks on the Greyhound bus.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

John Packer: Catch the Greyhound bus up to Humboldt County, up to Arcata.

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.

John Packer: And, uh, get off the bus there and backpack camp, ride in cars, you know, meet and go across 299 over to Redding-

Scott Hammond: Huh

John Packer: … camp, hop back on the Greyhound bus, catch the Greyhound bus from Redding, uh, back down to Oakland every summer.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

John Packer: Every summer. So it was just-

Scott Hammond: It was your summer field trip.

John Packer: Summer field trip, yeah, of just two, two buddies. You know, "Hey, see the road, man." And back then, you know, it was cheap.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: You know, you, uh… The only, the only sketch thing about it was the Greyhound bus station in Oakland is, was an interesting place with-

Scott Hammond: Sure

John Packer: … you know, the prostitutes hanging out and stuff like that.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: But once you got-

Scott Hammond: San Francisco, LA

John Packer: … SF, LA, all the same.

Scott Hammond: Same, same one.

John Packer: Stuff like that.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Um, so I come up here. You get off the bus. The bus at that particular time, the bus stop for, um, the Greyhound at that time was the building just to the south of what's Adventure- is known as Adventure's Edge right now.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Became a barber shop and-

John Packer: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … yeah

John Packer: … barber shop, stuff like that. So we got out there. So that's all mostly junior high, high school. And, and because of the, the era I grew up in, so for the people watching or listening, I'm at the tail end of the baby boomer.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: Uh, so '46 to '64.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And, uh, born in '62.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: So coming out of the Bay Area, it's just chill.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: I mean, you can, you can get a ride, you can hitchhike, you can-

Scott Hammond: Oh, yeah

John Packer: … hop in a car with anybody. You can walk. You can just, you know.

Scott Hammond: Not anymore.

John Packer: Not anymore. No one would do that anymore.

Scott Hammond: Don't do that at all.

John Packer: I, I walked to school in kindergarten by myself and with-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

John Packer: … with Lala Bagalantes.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Uh, Greek gal, lived down the street from me. And, um, and so, so I'm coming up to Arcata for that. Skip all the way to high school. I get out of, I'm finishing up high school, then I'm gonna decide if, uh, I'm gonna go into either marine biology at San Diego-

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh

John Packer: … or wildlife management at Humboldt State.

Scott Hammond: Hmm.

John Packer: So I hop on the, the Greyhound bust, get off, I'm like, "Dang, I know this place."

Scott Hammond: I've been here before.

John Packer: I've been here before. So I'm halfway up here, and I'd never stopped in at Humboldt State, right? I, that was not any of… I was not concerned with Humboldt. I just wanted to get on the road, where could I

John Packer: camp?

Scott Hammond: Which isn't that far from the Greyhound station.

John Packer: Right.

Scott Hammond: It's just-

John Packer: But I mean…

Scott Hammond: Yeah, you were busy getting to Redding.

John Packer: Busy getting to Red- I got a backpack on. I'm going, right? And so I go, "Hey, I know this bus stop," and I get off, and I actually know that I'm coming up to an area that I'm familiar with because I pass the B Mill down in Scotia, and I'm like, "Hey, I've been through that before."

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And, um, so I come up to Humboldt State in 1980.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … as a wildlife management major. Mm-hmm. And, uh- You, you too? Yes. Yeah. Me too. Until I found out… And, and I wanted to be a game warden. Sure. And, uh, and, and then you couldn't get a job as a game warden at that time. Now you can. Yeah. Um, they wanted, um, wildlife biologists in. I, I was the… I'm- I was definitely

John Packer: designed to be in the outdoors or to be outside.

John Packer: Mm-hmm. And so I would end up, uh, switching to speech communication- Oh … as an emphasis- Mm-hmm … or as a degree with an emphasis in organizational communication. But I moved down to, um, to Cal State Fullerton to finish that degree. Mm-hmm. And then im- immediately upon finishing, uh, almost immediately upon finishing, moved back up here, uh, to, to go to, to live in, uh, in Humboldt County. Oh, so you finished at Fullerton? Finished at Fullerton. Came back up here. Yeah. Is that where you met your wife? No, I m- met my wife here. So I'm involved in a couple different, uh, nonprofits or, or organizations, and one of them still is, uh, a group called Young Life. It's a ministry to high school kids.

John Packer: Sure. And at that time, I was on staff. So I'm finished with school, but I'm, I'm on staff with Humboldt… or excuse me, with, yeah, uh, Humboldt County Young Life.

John Packer: Mm-hmm. And I'm… I don't know whose house. I mean, we've got 30 or 40 kids in a house going crazy, singing songs, doing

John Packer: skits, and I'm gonna do a talk- … on who Jesus is- Nice … at the end of this. And, uh, and so those are great places to recruit people. And you're the old guy. You're the graduate- I'm, yeah … from college. Yeah. I'm, I'm- You're 22 or something. Yeah, something like, yeah. Right on. And, um, these three gals come in. Um, one of them is my wife to be someday. Don't know that at that time. Sure. And, uh, and they walk in, and, um, I see them, and I'm like, "Dang, she's good-looking." Sure. And, uh, and so we meet, uh, while I'm a part of, uh, Young Life ministry here- Mm-hmm …

John Packer: at, uh, in Arcata/Eureka/McKinleyville area. Yeah. So that, that's how we met.

John Packer: Um, so she's from the Riverside area. Mm-hmm. Um, we end up, um… I end up working for a company later on, um, known as… So I, I go,

John Packer: I go from college into the outdoor industry. Yeah. So couple different careers before I get to the law firm. That's how we met, Moonstone, uh- Yeah, Moonstone Mountaineering. Yeah. So I go and I work for a company called Sport Chile, and I run their camping department and I run their fishing department for the Huntington Beach store. Wow. I go from there to Moonstone Mountaineering. In Arcata. In Arcata. I start their, uh, their retail side of their business. Yep. And, um, they already had a wholesale phenomenal, phenomenal… I still have, what, that's 30-something, almost 40 years ago. No, 40-something years ago. I still have equipment that works as great as it did the first day. Right. Quality's really good. Yeah. Are they still in business? You know what? They are not that I know of. I know they were sold and sold and sold and sold, and their name is still owned by somebody- Huh … but I haven't seen the product out there. Okay. So. Yeah. The R&D is still phenomenal. I mean, you have a hood on your down… or excuse me, on your, um, mummy sleeping bag because of the work that Fred Williams put into, um- He was the designer … he was the designer for that, yeah. Yeah. We lived at, uh, we lived with the S- Steve and Jenna Cole, who were Yakima- Okay

John Packer: … Yakima Racks. Yeah, I know the Coles. Yeah. They were great. Yeah. He would do 12-hour days. Oh, yeah. So and that was my last, that's the last pla- place I worked before I went into law enforcement. So I went to work for Yakima Racks. Huh. And I did inside sales for what was called Northern California, so, uh, inside sales from Fresno up to the Oregon border- Wow … Reno, and then I had… Interesting story. I had the key account from Cabela's. How about that? So, um- Right up your alley. Well, yes, it was kinda interesting. Uh, I'll throw a shout-out to a, um, a, a friend of mine. Larry Hewitt was the national sales manager at Yakima when I was there. Phenomenal guy. Um, ran into him at the old Eureka Inn. Huh. Uh, he w- I, I don't, uh… Didn't know who he was. He knew who I was. He walked up to me and he says, "You're John Packer, aren't you?" I'm, "Yeah." Sure. "Sure." "So is my dad." Who's asking? "And my granddad, too." Uh, he says, "Hey, I'm Larry Hewitt. I'm with Yakima. I saw what you did at, um, at Moonstone. You need to come work for Yakima." Wow. I said, "Okay." Um, so, uh, Larry walks in to, uh, my little cubicle at one point in time, and, and Yakima's, uh, attempting to get the Cabela's- Mm-hmm … uh, account. Mm-hmm. And, uh, he says, "I got a question. Cabela…" A- and he actually got the… I, I managed some of the outflow of the, the product in that pipeline. Um, and he says, "Cabela's asked me a question. They, they wanna know…" And, uh, Cabela's is a hunting company, right? Right. Right. Oh, yeah. Not really the genre for Yakima at that time. Not at all, no. Right? Not a lot of outdoorsmen in Yakima. Yeah. Steve Cole and Banducci are not… I mean, they're outdoorsmen- They're not hunters … from a kayaking standpoint. Yeah, maybe fishing. Right. Yeah, maybe. So Cabela's wants to know how many coyote pelts can fit in this bag's case. And and he looks- Good for you … goes, "Hey, dude." You're the resident. I'm like, "Well, I…" You're, you're the hunter. "Are you talking female pelts or male pelts?" No. 'Cause the female's gonna be a little bit larger. That's funny. So I give him a number, and, uh, I'm like, "And you gotta figure, you know, we, we… Did we just harvest them, or have they been, uh, fleshed and salted or…" And so I give him some numbers that was sufficient that we got the, got the account. But- Fleshed … that's like- Well, because up until that point- 'Cause salt, well, salt weighs a lot … salt weighs a lot. It's got moisture in it, you know? And, uh, prior to that… A- and they still do. I'm sure they do. That was just kind of a, a funny spin on I think Cabela's trying to say,

John Packer: "Hey, can you go toe-to-toe in this conversation?" Right. "Because this is gonna be a big account." Um- Did they sell the account? Did they, did it happen? Oh, yeah, it happened. Yeah. Yeah. It was phenomenal. Yeah. Good. It was phenomenal. Oh, that's cool. Um, I mean, having a Cabela's on there was similar to having an REI on there and things like that, but, uh- So how did you… So did you go to, uh, police academy at CR? I went to the police academy at CR. Mm. So I'm at-I'm at Yakima

John Packer: Products.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And Yakima is going to be sold. I think at this point in time, Cransco was gonna buy

John Packer: them.

Scott Hammond: This is the first sale?

John Packer: First sale.

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.

John Packer: Yeah, this is the first sale. Um, which was really heartbreaking. I mean, it-

Scott Hammond: For everyone, right?

John Packer: For everyone.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: I mean, it, it was an-

Scott Hammond: Emotional

John Packer: … organic, homegrown group of guys that had been out paddling, river rats, that made it good, made it great.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And, um, and so we knew because we'd been told that, um, the majority of the company was gonna go to either Oregon or what was called S- South San Diego.

Scott Hammond: Tijuana.

John Packer: Guess where that is. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Mexico.

John Packer: You can go to, you can go to South San Diego.

Scott Hammond: I'm from South San Diego.

John Packer: You can go-

Scott Hammond: I'm from National City. I-

John Packer: Okay. So-

Scott Hammond: No, exactly. Well, they located in Mexico, did they not?

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: So, um, "But we're not gonna pay you any extra. You're gonna get the same pay."

Scott Hammond: Wow.

John Packer: And so I said, you know, "We, we can't do that." Um, Betty and I were married. Oh, I wasn't gonna say her name, but my wife and I were

John Packer: married.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: And, uh, and so I said, "We need to start looking at, um, some other things." And I'd, I'd looked at law enforcement before 'cause I wanted to be a game warden.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: Um, but at, at that time… And, and we started praying about it because we really wanted to stay up here.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

John Packer: And the way that prayer was answered was interesting. Somebody ran over the sprinkler system at our house.

Scott Hammond: Oh.

John Packer: So I get up in the morning, a- and we've had a, we've had a college-age Bible study that's met at our house for 30 years now.

John Packer: Um-

Scott Hammond: Is it that… Wow.

John Packer: Yeah, that long we've been in town, so.

Scott Hammond: From Humboldt State, now-

John Packer: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … now it's Cal Poly.

John Packer: Now it's Cal Poly.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: I say Humboldt. I don't even try to say Cal Poly.

Scott Hammond: I like that. It's a running joke on the podcast.

John Packer: Just, just Humboldt.

Scott Hammond: Cal Poly.

John Packer: Humboldt.

Scott Hammond: No, it… What-

John Packer: Who are we? C-P-H-S-Q-R-Z-L-M-N-O-P.

Scott Hammond: We'll go Humboldt.

John Packer: Yeah, so Humboldt. So, uh-

Scott Hammond: 30 years, that's really g-

John Packer: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … That's awesome, dude.

John Packer: It's fantastic. I actually h- have married a couple of the, the students and that have met at the college for Bible study.

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.

John Packer: I've stayed at their houses, uh, in, um, in Washington and Idaho. Uh, you know, so there's pla- across the s- the United States.

Scott Hammond: You're Uncle, you're Uncle John.

John Packer: Yeah. Uncle-

Scott Hammond: Grandpa, Grandpa John.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: And so I look out and there is, uh, there's water gushing out of our yard, and so I call the police department up and I file a report. And, uh, an officer named Demas Madera shows up, Cuban guy,

John Packer: and he says, "You look like you're distracted." I'm like, "Yeah, I've, I got a Bible study I'm doing, man. Then somebody ran over my my sprinkler system. There's water gushing out. Let me get it turned off." He says, "Here's my card. Here's the case number. Call me on, um, you know, you know, next d- next week and we-

Scott Hammond: Sure

John Packer: … we can talk about this." So I, "Okay, great." Unbeknownst to me, and I know this now because it's funny 'cause I spent 27 years in law enforcement, there's not a darn thing you can do about it.

Scott Hammond: He's not gonna do anything about that.

John Packer: Not doing anything.

Scott Hammond: Here's a case.

John Packer: Yeah. Here's a case number. Thank you very much.

Scott Hammond: Was he recruiting you?

John Packer: Go… Yes.

Scott Hammond: Of course he was.

John Packer: So I get there and, uh, I look for Demas, and I'm like, "Yeah, have you got anything on, on my sprinkler system?"

Scott Hammond: You got a hot lead?

John Packer: And he's like-

Scott Hammond: I do. It's you.

John Packer: He's like, "Dude, you're just gonna have to fix that."

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Good luck.

John Packer: Like, he says, "But-"

Scott Hammond: Here's my boss.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: He wants to meet you.

John Packer: Yeah. He's like, "Here's the deal. We need more Christian men working in law enforcement. Why don't you come on a ride-along and consider it as a career?"

Scott Hammond: Wow.

John Packer: And I'm like-

Scott Hammond: That's a random answer to prayer

John Packer: … I was like, "Wow, really? Okay." Like out of left field, this is why I'm here. And, and, uh, and so I would eventually go on with Arcata Police Department. They would… They did a neat thing. What they did was they, they offered me a job. Well, they offered me the academy, so I went in and I became a, a reserve. I put enough hours in to be a reserve, and then the academy came in. 73rd Academy comes up and, uh, but I'm working at, um,

John Packer: Yakima.

John Packer: And-

Scott Hammond: Huh

John Packer: … so I go to Steve and I say, "Steve, here's the deal. I got this opportunity to go to the police department, uh, law enforcement academy." And he-

Scott Hammond: Steve Cole?

John Packer: Steve Cole. No, no, so, no, sorry, not Steve.

Scott Hammond: Dan Ducci.

John Packer: Um, Larry Hewitt. I go to Larry Hewitt.

John Packer: Excuse me.

John Packer: And he says, "Well, here's the deal, John. Why don't you go ahead and go? We'll give you a leave of absence."

Scott Hammond: Huh.

John Packer: "And you can attend the academy. If you get a job, then you'll go on and be a police officer. If you don't, you can come back and work for Yakima."

Scott Hammond: Wow.

John Packer: I'm like, "Okay." So that's great.

John Packer: So I-

Scott Hammond: Sure

John Packer: … I accept that, that offer from Arcata Police Department.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And, uh, oh, about a month into the academy, uh, Mel Brown, who's the chief of police, passed away at this point.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: He's deceased. Uh, he said, "If you su- successfully pass, we'll guarantee you a job at Arcata Police Department."

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And I was like, "So fantastic." So, so now I've got this situation where, uh, I have a job. I'm on leave from the job. I have a job that's-

Scott Hammond: That's waiting

John Packer: … uh, that's waiting for me, okay?

Scott Hammond: Yes. You're set.

John Packer: It gets better.

John Packer: Betty… I was like, "You s-

Scott Hammond: This other lady.

John Packer: Yeah, this other lady that I, that I married.

John Packer: Okay.

Scott Hammond: The one from the-

John Packer: The-

Scott Hammond: … the Bible study

John Packer: … the one from the Bible study, yes, that I'm now married to, um, is pregnant with our first child.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

John Packer: Okay. And we're living in a one-bedroom house where you can, without exaggeration, stand in one spot, um, reach into the, the kitchen, the bathroom-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

John Packer: … the closet.

Scott Hammond: I lived in that place.

John Packer: The little… That, that place?

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Which one?

John Packer: Down on South G Street. And so, uh, we need to buy a house, right?

Scott Hammond: Wow.

John Packer: We need to buy a house. Well, here's the interesting thing.

John Packer: Uh, we make enough money that we don't qualify for a house except, uh, for, you know, first-time home buyer and things like that.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

John Packer: Except that I have a leave of absence so that the, the potential can't be considered-

Scott Hammond: Huh

John Packer: … uh, in terms of, uh, qualifying for a first-time home buyers program, so we

John Packer: qualify. We close and move in

John Packer: on January

John Packer: 2nd.

Scott Hammond: My birthday.

John Packer: Is that your birthday?

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Yeah. It's also my daughter's birthday.

Scott Hammond: That's funny.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: And I start the academy the next day.

Scott Hammond: So you qualified based on your numbers being low.

John Packer: Being low, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Perfect. Okay. Hey.

John Packer: Whatever works.

Scott Hammond: Perfect. Hey.

John Packer: I beat everybody on the introductory at the academy. They're like, "Can you give us one thing about yourself that nobody knows?" "Yeah, I had a child born yesterday." "My wife is at home right now, and I'm a dad today."

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Today.

John Packer: "And I wasn't earlier yesterday."

Scott Hammond: That's… How do you beat that?

John Packer: Yeah. Anybody? Anybody? Anybody? I should've, I should've put some square, $5 squares out there for-

Scott Hammond: Just just to-

John Packer: Make a little extra spending money

Scott Hammond: So this was… The academy is number… This is number 73?

John Packer: 73, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Three. And how many are there now? There must be what, 1-

John Packer: 131.

Scott Hammond: Wow. That's a lot of classes.

John Packer: Yes. Lot of cadets going through.

Scott Hammond: Is that a… Is, is that CR Academy pretty famous in terms of JC academies in the state?

John Packer: It's… It still has cadets, and there's others that have been closed down.

Scott Hammond: Still, still going.

John Packer: Right, still going.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: And it's… There's, there's two types. So police academies operate under what's called Peace Officer Standards and Training, POST. There's two types of academies, uh, within that POST

John Packer: structure.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: There are academies, for example, at CR, which are non-affiliated

John Packer: academies.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And there's academies that are affiliated with a police department.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

John Packer: So LAPD has a POST-certified police academy, but it's for

John Packer: LAPD.

Scott Hammond: Oh, I see.

John Packer: So if I were to, for some unknown reason, um, go back into law enforcement and wanna work for LAPD, I'd have to complete their academy.

Scott Hammond: So they have their own schools.

John Packer: They have their own schools. So-

Scott Hammond: So they're farm-

John Packer: And that's… Yeah

Scott Hammond: … farm system, like baseball.

John Packer: Right.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Yeah. Um, because the, the… Working for Oakland Police Department or San Francisco Poli-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … well, not San Francisco. They, they use ours.

John Packer: Um, but LAPD, for example-

Scott Hammond: Mm

John Packer: … is so unique in terms of their structure and what they're doing that they need to fine-tune that officer-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

John Packer: … right out of the academy.

Scott Hammond: Wow. Okay.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So they had to really have a set-up. Um, so UPD for how many years at university?

John Packer: So 17 years for, at University Police Department.

Scott Hammond: Wow. And you just retired a couple years ago.

John Packer: Retired a year now. Retired, well, I stopped working October 30th of

John Packer: 2021-

Scott Hammond: Okay

John Packer: … 'cause I was not going to work on Halloween.

John Packer: Just bad things ha- I, I'm not superstitious, but I didn't want-

Scott Hammond: But you knew enough

John Packer: … any of that. So I knew enough. You put on costumes in the middle of the night. When there's anonymity, the crime rate goes up, right?

Scott Hammond: It just does, yeah.

John Packer: I didn't wanna catch that. I ha- I, I did catch a case at the end that, um, was unfortunate for another officer, but, but, uh… So stopped working October 30th and retired Febru- of, of… Retired February of 2022-

Scott Hammond: Okay

John Packer: … uh, just to cover the different two years because of accumulated competent- compensatory time and vacation time and-

Scott Hammond: Nice

John Packer: … if you go out at a certain part of the year, you're gonna get hammered in taxes 'cause it bumps you up in your-

Scott Hammond: So there's a strategic route.

John Packer: Yeah, strategic, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Oh, that makes sense. So, um, you have other interests. So Boy Scouts of America-

John Packer: Yes

Scott Hammond: … you've been with forever. Um, I know, uh, you're very involved in the ministry at Teleios, Arcata Calvary Chapel. And talk about, talk about BSA for a minute. And I know you-

John Packer: Yeah. That's interesting. That's-

Scott Hammond: I mean, and you're known as Packer, right?

John Packer: I'm known as Packer. Everybody knows me as Packer.

Scott Hammond: You're known as Packer at, at the university-

John Packer: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … BSA, and the whole nine.

John Packer: Or nine, yeah. It's usually Packer.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Sometimes it's Officer Packer. Sometimes… A- and it's been Officer Packer for- forever.

Scott Hammond: So your legacy is… So you… The, the, uh, the Bible study at the campus for college guys and gals, and then with youth at BSA-

John Packer: Right

Scott Hammond: … and Young Life. That's, that's… You've invested in a lot of people.

John Packer: I have, and it's… You know, over time, it's paid dividends because even in law enforcement, I had a stint where I was, um, everyone's DARE officer or school resource officer.

John Packer: So you meet the majority, if not all of the students coming through. So Arcata High, I was a school resource officer from, um, 2002 to 2004.

Scott Hammond: Define DARE for those of us that don't know exactly what that-

John Packer: So back in the day, Drug Abuse Recognition Education.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

John Packer: So it came out of LAPD. We were looking at specifically fifth and sixth graders and how to give them tools not to become involved in gangs and, and drug use. Um, but it also reached back and did some work with, uh, the K through fourth as well.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And so you'd go in, and you'd just develop relationships with, with kids, and talk about, you know, what peer pressure is like at that age. It… There was a lot of criticism about it. I would get adults that would tell me, "DARE doesn't work. You can't use…" I mean, I've, I've seen this stuff, and I'm like, "Yeah, I do. And you're, you're 40 years old, and it's written for a sixth grader."

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: "So I'm pretty sure that's -"

Scott Hammond: It's not for you, bro

John Packer: … "not for you, pal." "Come on." Uh

John Packer: so-

Scott Hammond: I thought you, I thought you were gonna tell me that some, like, grower's gonna tell you how this is terrible material.

John Packer: Uh, and we had that. I mean, we had, we… It's Humboldt County, right?

John Packer: So-

Scott Hammond: It is Humboldt County

John Packer: … you're doing your parent once-a-year type of conversation, and, "Hi, I'm Officer Packer with Arcata Police Department. I'm your DARE officer."

Scott Hammond: Mm.

John Packer: "And, you know, we're gonna be talking about A, B, and C. And one of our rules is that we don't ever ask kids to use names. We always ask them, if they have a question, use the phrase, 'Someone I know smokes weed, has dope growing here, has their nugs hidden here.'" And it's… I kid you not. And, and Rebarcheck was an officer before me that d- uh, was in the same program. He said, "It's gonna be hilarious. You're gonna get to that point," because you, you have a certain, uh, amount of information that everyone gets out, and this is one of them, just to let them know. Everyone I… "Someone I know smokes weed." He says, "You… Half your parents will get up and walk out at that point in time."

Scott Hammond: Huh.

John Packer: And I kid you not. Every year, I'd have that parent meeting. "Folks, I wanna let you know, 'cause I know a lot of you are here because you're worried about this, but if, if you're using we… We're not trying to develop leads with your kids. We use the phrase, 'Someone I know-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

John Packer: … has nugs,' and that's all we're doing." And then we address what they're talking about, and half the parents-

Scott Hammond: Right

John Packer: … get up and leave.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Every, every year with, with- without exception.

Scott Hammond: It's, it's been illegal for a long time till that point.

John Packer: Yes, it was. And, uh, so yeah, so that, that was, you know-It, it was foundational for me, it was educational for me to, um, to learn about the county and the people in the county. It drew me really close to a lot of people in the county, and families that I know to this day.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

John Packer: Um, and it also helped because it really kinda solidified we wanted to raise our kids here, in spite of the whole weed issue-

Scott Hammond: Sure

John Packer: … um, which we were able to keep our kids away from. It's not hard to stay away from weed.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Um, and, uh, so we really enjoyed that. And, and so it really was foundational f- for it.

John Packer: Now, my, my kids might not say the same thing because, you know, there was times where I had to… I could not be a DARE officer or school off- resource officer when my kids were in school. You don't wanna do that to your kids. I didn't wanna do that. I didn't wanna be the school resource officer while one of the kids was at Arcata High.

Scott Hammond: Right.

John Packer: That, that's just not cool.

Scott Hammond: Right.

John Packer: I mean, even f- even for… Now, I've had no problem going onto campus in uniform, 'cause I have a daughter-

Scott Hammond: Sure

John Packer: … and asking for her in uniform-

Scott Hammond: Right

John Packer: … just to fly the colors. I had no problem with that.

Scott Hammond: Just to mess with her.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So Scout, how'd you get into scouting?

Scott Hammond: We-

John Packer: So I got into scouting at eight years of age in Oakland,

John Packer: California-

Scott Hammond: Wow

John Packer: … in Pack 220.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

John Packer: And stopped for a little while because obviously you're in college, and I'm, I'm, I was a grown man. I didn't have any, uh, desire to be a, a part of scouts until my, my son came along.

Scott Hammond: Were you Eagle Scout?

John Packer: I was… I did not Eagle.

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.

John Packer: I did not Eagle. I, I got… So they, they talk about, um, guys will not get their Eagle if they get involved in fumes.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

John Packer: Fumes from girls, fumes from their car.

John Packer: And so- Perfume or gas fumes.

Scott Hammond: Could be weed fumes now too.

John Packer: That's true, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: And, uh, so I got as far as, uh, my Life in Life rank, um, but was outdoors too much, was, was outdoors way too much. More… And, and to get your Eagle, you have to have a really excellent balance of being that, uh, outdoor Scout, but also the someday gonna be a businessman, sit down, personal finance, personal

John Packer: management-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

John Packer: … and those types of, of merit badge stuff, you know.

Scott Hammond: Communication skills-

John Packer: Yeah, and so-

Scott Hammond: … and the whole nine

John Packer: … yeah. And so, uh, that didn't interest me at the time.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, right.

John Packer: So like personal management, wildlife management.

Scott Hammond: Well-

John Packer: Going for wildlife management.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, easy.

John Packer: Personal management, you've already done wildlife management. Let's do wildlife management again.

Scott Hammond: Easy choice.

John Packer: Let's do wilderness survival again. How about that wilderness survival?

Scott Hammond: So you're… Were, were you a pack leader then in, in, uh, McKinleyville?

John Packer: Uh, yes. So well, not, not McKinleyville. So, so I come back up here. I, I, I get out of scouting when I'm 18, 18, 19 years old. Um, our son is born,

John Packer: and it becomes a requirement that he goes into Cub Scouts so I can live vicariously through him.

Scott Hammond: Ah. An unwritten requirement.

John Packer: It's a requirement.

Scott Hammond: Yes.

John Packer: Th- to this day, my daughter is mad at me because, uh, at that time, girls not allowed in Boy Scouts.

John Packer: And to this-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

John Packer: … day she's, she's not happy-

Scott Hammond: Not happy

John Packer: … with the fact that she could not earn her Eagle Scout.

Scott Hammond: Oh. Did she do Girl Scouts?

John Packer: No.

Scott Hammond: Oh.

John Packer: It was not gonna happen.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Not… No, she's not a Girl Scout kind of girl.

Scott Hammond: She's…

John Packer: Well, I shouldn't say. So not… I, I need to qualify something here. Humboldt County Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are excellent programs. They're different than the rest of the state of California.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: So if you're a Girl Scout in Humboldt County, you're badass.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, no.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: The Kingums are our neighbors.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: You're, you're badass.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Now, everywhere else-

Scott Hammond: Shout out to Cheryl and, and, um-

John Packer: Not so much, but yeah, here you're-

Scott Hammond: … Mr. Kingum

John Packer: … yeah, uh, the gals-

Scott Hammond: Derek

John Packer: … toe to, toe to toe with the guys.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. No, they're a great, great couple. They really take care of young ladies. It's awesome.

John Packer: Yeah. So Gene Joyce and I… Gene Joyce was, uh, the p- the pack master, I w- or the Cub master.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

John Packer: I, uh, my wife and I ran a pack-

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh

John Packer: … and, um, moved all the way through, uh, Cub Scouts-

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh

John Packer: … uh, to Webelos, and then we went to, uh,

John Packer: Troop 95.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And Betty dropped off, um, because it was, you know, "Hey, look, this is, this is-"

Scott Hammond: Who's Betty?

John Packer: Who's Betty? Yeah.

Scott Hammond: That g- that girl you met.

John Packer: Yeah, the girl I met. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: An a- anonymous-

John Packer: An anonymous-

Scott Hammond: It's just a fake name

John Packer: … lady that was at the, uh, the youth g- get together.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: So-

Scott Hammond: So a troop then is… So a pack is a group, a small group.

John Packer: Small group of Cub Scouts.

Scott Hammond: And the troop is, is Boy Scouts.

John Packer: Boy Scouts, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

John Packer: That's it.

Scott Hammond: How many typically in a troop?

John Packer: So at that time, I think we had 25 boys, 25 to 30 boys in a troop with five patrols. So it's a very much paramilitary organization.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

John Packer: Uh, Scouts, the name Scouts from Baden-Powell was not happenstance. They were scouts, right, uh, for the military.

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.

John Packer: And, um, and so you, you run patrols, patrols run troops.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And then, uh, it branches out from, or it moves on from there depending on what you're doing. So if we go to a, um, a national jamboree, for example-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … we have contingents that continue into troop. The troop's a part of a sub-camp. Sub-camp's part of a camp. Camp's part of a… It's very well structured.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Any case, so I go to, to, to Troop 95, and it's just j- my son and I.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: Um, because at that point we're, we're definitely in this mode of, um, boys need to learn how to be men

John Packer: from men.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And we need to put them into some stressful situations-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … um, and address those stress- stressful situations and learning

John Packer: situations.

Scott Hammond: And learn.

John Packer: And learn.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And learn. And, and we use wooden paddles-

Scott Hammond: And growth, yeah

John Packer: … to do it. Yeah. You know?

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: So you're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna put a pack on your back and you're-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … gonna sweat.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And, um, and there's gonna be a, a prize that,

John Packer: that lake, that camaraderie-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … that building a fire at the end-

Scott Hammond: And the fish

John Packer: … is… Yeah, the fish. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: It's gonna taste better than anything-

John Packer: It tastes fantastic

Scott Hammond: … you've ever, you've ever eaten fish like this.

John Packer: I could open up… Here's a story for… I could o- you could be out of food. I could hike you for 10 miles, and that can of sardines will taste phenomenal.

Scott Hammond: It's amazing.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: It's… Where did you get these sardines, Nick?

John Packer: Vioxx are great.

Scott Hammond: Are these from Grocery Outlet?

John Packer: Somebody told me a story about that the other day. They were talking about their kid that hiked, and they, they ate sardines. And they come home, they're like asking their parents, "Hey, can you buy sardines?"

Scott Hammond: These are good.

John Packer: They get 'em out. "Oh, what is that?"

Scott Hammond: It's disgusting.

John Packer: "You had them for sardines. Those things are disgusting. That's not what I had."

Scott Hammond: They're supposed to be bad ones.

John Packer: Yeah. Well-

Scott Hammond: Funny how that parallels the, the, the lessons of life and scouting parallel each other.

John Packer: Right.

Scott Hammond: That we- we're put under stress, and you're put under duress. Let's see what you got. And hopefully you have safe people-

John Packer: Right

Scott Hammond: … that are around you that'll coach, coach you up, co- you know, coach approach, and take care of you and, and, uh, walk you through

Scott Hammond: that.

John Packer: Yeah. And I did. I had s- when I was in Boy Scouts, I d- I obviously, the, uh, scouts have their problems.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And, uh, and s- and still do in some ways in terms of it's not… I say Boy Scouts of America, BSA, and I'm, I'm always gonna say that, kind of like Humboldt.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Humboldt, Boy Scouts of America. But it's actually Scouting BSA, and I, sometime next year it's going to s- Scouting America or American Scouts or something like that.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

John Packer: And so it's kind of a train wreck in that sense. Uh, but Humboldt County Boy Scouts is Humboldt County Boy Scouts-

Scott Hammond: Sure

John Packer: … in a sense.

Scott Hammond: And you knew Mac, right?

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: He was a neat guy.

John Packer: Yes.

Scott Hammond: He ran the… What, he ran the store? He ran scouting in Humboldt?

John Packer: He ran the-

Scott Hammond: What was his last name? Mac, uh, I'll think- anyway.

John Packer: Yeah, he ran the store.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Well, he ran the office, which had a store in it.

Scott Hammond: Right. So he's like, like the admin-

John Packer: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … into his old age.

John Packer: Yes. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: He was a believer.

John Packer: Yes, he was.

Scott Hammond: He believed hard.

John Packer: Yes, he did.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Now-

John Packer: Yeah. So we lost that store.

Scott Hammond: Right, that's gone.

John Packer: That's, that's, that's, that store was sold by the

John Packer: council-

Scott Hammond: Hmm

John Packer: … to pay part of their bill for the lawsuits.

Scott Hammond: How about that?

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: That's too bad.

John Packer: So.

Scott Hammond: 'Cause that was a key store.

John Packer: It was, and it was given to the kids.

Scott Hammond: Hmm.

John Packer: So it wasn't… Yeah, so then, uh, there's a… I still have a source of discontention there on that.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, kind of picking up on that right now.

John Packer: Yeah.

John Packer: Best day.

Scott Hammond: We have a lot more to talk about.

John Packer: It's a kids' store. They gi- it was, it was, it was given to them as a gift.

Scott Hammond: So I see a thread here. So you, you had this, this service, this ministry to, to, uh, to Humboldt, to, uh, in, in police, in police, in law enforcement, and, uh, certainly in BSA, and, um, you're, you're a hunter too, so hunter safety. Do you do stuff like that too or…?

John Packer: You know, I've done

John Packer: … I got… I didn't get in trouble. I got some raised eyebrows. So Arcata, Arcata's Arcata.

John Packer: Arcata's a, Arcata's a different town. So n- so now-

Scott Hammond: Sure

John Packer: … but not really. I mean, growing up, being a kid running around Oakland in the '70s is not very much different than running around Arcata-

Scott Hammond: True

John Packer: … now, right? Okay.

Scott Hammond: Right.

John Packer: It ex- I mean the-

Scott Hammond: 'Cause all the, everybody came from this San Francisco-

John Packer: Just kind of-

Scott Hammond: … to Oakland and kind of-

John Packer: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … in- infiltrated early. Hippies.

John Packer: So I have this great idea at, at Arcata Police Department that I'm gonna get ahold of the National Rifle Association.

Scott Hammond: And do what? Where?

John Packer: And do …

Scott Hammond: Arcata?

John Packer: In Arcata, and bring in what's called the Eddie the Eagle program, which is a hunter safety program for kids.

Scott Hammond: Nice.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: For the city of Arcata for the rec program or whatever?

John Packer: For, for, you know, as a part of an outreach from Arcata Police Department to our, our kids.

Scott Hammond: How'd that go?

John Packer: It went really well with the kids, not so well with the city council.

Scott Hammond: Go figure.

John Packer: Go figure. It happened, you know.

John Packer: It happened.

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh.

John Packer: Fantastic chief. Mel Brown had come up through the ranks, and I'm sure there was a lot of conversation about that.

Scott Hammond: Mel's a good guy.

John Packer: Mel's a good guy.

Scott Hammond: Was a good guy, yeah.

John Packer: And, uh-

Scott Hammond: Maybe still is a good guy.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, let's go with that.

John Packer: And, um, and so it happened, but to this day, Dave Brown, another sergeant with Arcata, and I joke about it. Just like, "Packer-" "… what were you thinking?"

Scott Hammond: You did that?

John Packer: The NRA, Arcata?

Scott Hammond: That's funny. Why not?

John Packer: I don't think that was ever… Hey, let's make it happen.

Scott Hammond: This was wa-

John Packer: It's for the kids

Scott Hammond: … it looked good on paper.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: So let's talk about African Americans and, and, and yourself

Scott Hammond: and, and-

John Packer: Okay

Scott Hammond: … Humboldt and-

John Packer: Right

Scott Hammond: … how's, what's the experience here? So it's, it's… I, I'll, I'll just let you speak to it. It's, what, what, what's it like to be a man of color in, in, in Humboldt County over the years?

John Packer: So it's b- it's interesting. So let me, uh, let, let's do two things.

John Packer: One, if I wanna push that, a person's buttons, right? And we have this conversation.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: Uh, my typical, my typical response is I'm an American of African descent.

Scott Hammond: Amen.

John Packer: Okay? That's who I am.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

John Packer: Um, however, I know that if I use the term Black, um, as long as I'm saying that from the standpoint of so we're not trying to decide the fact that, you know, part of my family's from Nigeria and part of my family's from the West Congo. And-

Scott Hammond: Sure

John Packer: … um, that I also know that there are people with very, very dark skin that are in the West Indies. And, and, and so it's li- or H- or, uh, you know, Haitian or-

Scott Hammond: Wherever

John Packer: … wherever, right? So we're just using it as, uh, just so we can have the conversation and move on to what we need to talk about.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

John Packer: Um, I'll do that. But, but it's been interesting because just from a personal standpoint, um, if you look at my birth certificate-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … my birth certificate has my dad as a Negro laborer.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

John Packer: So-

Scott Hammond: That's not that long ago

John Packer: … that's not that long ago.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Right.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: And, uh, so I look at… And, and then so fast-forward to a couple years ago. I'm old, considering the, the students that are on campus at Humboldt, right?

John Packer: And so-

Scott Hammond: You and me, yeah.

John Packer: So this term BIPOC comes out, right?

Scott Hammond: What's… I've never heard that.

John Packer: You haven't?

Scott Hammond: Huh, what's that?

John Packer: Thank you.

Scott Hammond: What's that? I'm old like you are.

John Packer: Black Indigenous People of Color.

Scott Hammond: BIPOC.

John Packer: BIPOC. B-I-

Scott Hammond: Indigenous meaning

Scott Hammond: from-

John Packer: From… Well, for us Indigenous would be Native American.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

John Packer: Okay. Um, uh, and people of color. P-O-C. POC, people of color.

Scott Hammond: Okay. Huh.

John Packer: And so I have this… So someone uses that term. One of the kids, students.

Scott Hammond: Is that a university thing?

John Packer: No, no. It's, it's, it's a-

Scott Hammond: Thing

John Packer: … it's a thing, right?

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: And they throw it out there, and I'm like, "What's that?" And so they tell me.

Scott Hammond: You didn't know either?

John Packer: I didn't know.

Scott Hammond: I'm what?

John Packer: And so I'm like, so now I'm having this conversation. I'm like, "Wait a second. So what if I wanna be a person of color? Can I not be a person of color anymore?" I mean, because, I mean, aside from the really horrific names, uh, Black, Negro-Person of color, African American, and, and so, so part-

Scott Hammond: American of African descent

John Packer: … American Af- but that's mine.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. That's good.

John Packer: I coin, I coined that.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, okay. Yeah. It's good. Good. Run with that.

John Packer: I've never heard any- I've d- On your podcast I coined it.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. No, that's good.

John Packer: And, uh, so then I'll have the discussion about well who decided that?

Scott Hammond: Huh.

John Packer: Because, uh, I didn't.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: And, and no one asked me.

John Packer: And so-

Scott Hammond: No, and no one ever will

John Packer: … no one ever will. Someone else is gonna tell

John Packer: me-

Scott Hammond: Entitle-

John Packer: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … what, gosh.

John Packer: Yeah. And they're gonna take that empty tube called race and they're gonna fill it with something-

Scott Hammond: Huh

John Packer: … 'cause it's a construct.

Scott Hammond: Right.

John Packer: And, and they're gonna tell me that that's what I fit in and so I'm gonna-

Scott Hammond: With words that aren't, that aren't enough.

John Packer: That aren't enough.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: They aren't enough.

Scott Hammond: Or wrong, yeah. Worse.

John Packer: So there's that part of the conversation. But in terms of Humboldt County, so yeah, I mean, I've had a fantastic time.

John Packer: I, when I first got here, 1980,

John Packer: and the other thing I didn't know was what a kegger is, right?

Scott Hammond: You didn't know a kegger?

John Packer: I didn't know what a kegger wa- Okay, so in Oakland you don't go to keggers.

Scott Hammond: What do you go to?

John Packer: You go to house parties.

Scott Hammond: A house- okay.

John Packer: You go to a house party.

Scott Hammond: Where there might be a kegger.

John Packer: No, we didn't have kegs. So they would, there was never kegs at any of the house parties I went to. They would, nowadays you would say they were handles.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

John Packer: So-

Scott Hammond: Okay

John Packer: … you're at someone's house, their parents were gone.

Scott Hammond: They had a handle.

John Packer: And they had their, their bar, their home bar was there. So they had handles.

Scott Hammond: Forget… We had an entire bar.

John Packer: Right. And so, so I'm introduced to, uh, four by in and, and keggers.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

John Packer: And it's a neat story because my kids are adults now, so I can tell this story, but Gary and Evan and I, a bunch of us, we were, were freshmen at, at Humboldt, and, um, we hear, we hear about this kegger-

Scott Hammond: Huh

John Packer: … at a, a barn.

Scott Hammond: With handles.

John Packer: Yeah. No they-

Scott Hammond: It was a kegger

John Packer: … down on, it was, it was, it was a legit kegger. Uh, down in the bottoms.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: I mean, that, at that point in time that's all code, right?

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: A kegger-

Scott Hammond: In the bottoms

John Packer: … at a barn in the bottoms.

Scott Hammond: With red solos.

John Packer: I'm like v- so we hop in, and, and Levi Obregon's there too. So we have Evan and Garrett who are two white guys from, uh, Lone Pine, Bishop area.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

John Packer: We have Levi Obregon who's Hispanic. Hispanic Hispanic. And we have me.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

John Packer: African American, American of African descent. We hop in, and Jay Harris. And we, and Jay Harris is, like, white guy with red hair from Utah.

Scott Hammond: Motley crew.

John Packer: Man. And we're confused 'cause we've got on our Mexican huarache,

John Packer: um, ponchos-

Scott Hammond: Oh, man

John Packer: … um, 501s and top-

Scott Hammond: Looking good, baby

John Packer: … topsiders, right?

Scott Hammond: Topsiders.

John Packer: It's the '80s.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: And so we hop, and so we're, like, following this. And so we wind up at a barn on, just past Tony's, right?

Scott Hammond: Sure.

John Packer: And it's owned by the Kollenbergs. I don't know them at the time. Now I know the Kollenberg family.

John Packer: Um, b-

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Not far away, yeah

John Packer: … enough, yeah. Uh, so they'd just-

Scott Hammond: Tony, Tony's, 24 hours.

John Packer: Right.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: So they just built a huge barn out there and they were having a barn opening.

Scott Hammond: How about that?

John Packer: Right, right. So we p- so that crew, imagine that crew. We pull up, hop out of the truck, and we're like, there's a band playing.

John Packer: It's loud.

Scott Hammond: Huh.

John Packer: There's a ton of locals there. I mean, hundreds of locals if not thousands of locals.

Scott Hammond: These are Arcata High and Humboldt and everything.

John Packer: Arcata High, Humboldt. I mean, these are-

Scott Hammond: Just local

John Packer: … country boys

Scott Hammond: … mill, mill people.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Ranchers.

John Packer: Ran- ranching community-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

John Packer: … is there in full force.

Scott Hammond: And you guys are the Humboldt contingent.

John Packer: So we walk up and there's s- some boys out front, and they're, they're sitting there.

Scott Hammond: What's up?

John Packer: They, they look at us and we're like, "Hey, how's it going?" They're like,

John Packer: "Fine." Like, "We hear there's a party." They look at us.

John Packer: "Yep. Beer's that way. Dance floor's that way. Have a good old time, gentlemen."

Scott Hammond: Nice.

John Packer: Boop.

John Packer: We went in.

Scott Hammond: I like it.

John Packer: And that's been my experience of Humboldt County the entire time I've been here, except for s- a few idiots that were transplants to Humboldt-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

John Packer: … uh, and, and not a part of this community.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: So.

Scott Hammond: I like that story c- 'cause it represents kinda what I think Arcata is, was, is, and, and could, should be.

John Packer: Could be, yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, I mean, it, 'cause it doesn't represent the, the jerks.

John Packer: Right.

Scott Hammond: You know? Um, so Cal Poly just had these, uh, big, big Palestinian Gaza related-

John Packer: Right

Scott Hammond: … Israel, gosh, I'm, I wanna quantify it. I'm not gonna do it. So it was i- in your mind, uh, how, how did all that come about and how, how has it gone and, and it was a week, a, a one week long protest at Humboldt State here in Arcata, North Bay.

John Packer: Yeah, it was actually longer than a week, but-

Scott Hammond: Was it longer? Okay.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: And, uh, they really screwed up our campus. It felt really personal.

John Packer: It's a train wreck.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: It was an absolute train wreck from beginning to end.

John Packer: Um, administration, the way it was handled, the way the students didn't, didn't handle it, the way the, the way the professors and staff were involved in it and, and sponsoring it.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: Um, it was, it was a complete and utter train wreck.

Scott Hammond: So everybody contributed to its-

John Packer: Everyone contributed. E- uh, complacency.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: Um-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

John Packer: … um, under the guise of activism.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: Um, but yeah, nothing, nothing positive came out of that which is what your hope is for, uh, when a, when a protest. So speaking from a law enforcement standpoint, you know, I'm 27 years in law enforcement. I've been on, or had at that point in time been on, uh, Humboldt's campus for 17 years. Been gone for a year and a half, almost two years, right?

Scott Hammond: You know the campus, so it's very-

John Packer: So I know the campus, I know the dynamics of the campus

Scott Hammond: … it's kind of personal.

John Packer: It's personal because I have a historical understanding of how that should have been

John Packer: handled, uh, and my opinion as a sergeant-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … uh, obviously not as a, as an executive. And-That's not how we handled those, um- Mm-hmm … during our, my tenure and some of the other guys that, that came before me. Um, because our role, first and foremost, is, um, not to stop protests. Mm-hmm. It's not a law enforcement's role to end protests.

John Packer: Now, we're at a protest because- Mm-hmm … you have a right to regress your grievance against, in this case, the government, whomever, but you have to do it lawfully. And safely. And safely. Yeah. So our role there, our duty there a- a- at that is to make sure that whatever protest takes place, takes place in a lawful manner- Mm-hmm … regardless of how loud it gets- Mm-hmm …

John Packer: or, you know, barring something criminal written on the, the building and things like that or- Mm-hmm … or property destroyed. But once, once people break the law, then the, the, the officer's duty is to apprehend the criminal. Right. That- that's, that's what you owe, that's what I owe the community. So I always look at if, if, if we're driving through Eureka and I'm a police officer and there's a hit-and-run- Mm-hmm … and I'm the only officer on, then I need to stop and render aid to that person because- Right. Mm-hmm … that's a human being there, so I'm gonna render aid to that person, and I'm gonna use technology to send information to other officers to go- Mm-hmm … find this guy who just ran over someone. And so let's say he has a head wound. So I'm gonna put gauze on that person's head wound, I'm gonna hold pressure on there. Here's the deal. If I see you, Joe Citizen, and I look at you, I'm gonna call you over, I'm gonna give you some, uh, rubber gloves to put on, I'm gonna say, "Hold his… Hold pressure on this wound." Mm-hmm. "Don't leave here until emergency medical shows up- Mm-hmm … and I'm gonna go and do my duty, which is to apprehend the criminal."

John Packer: Right.

John Packer: So Humboldt State has… And so a- and then secondly, protests on college campuses are nothing new. Right. Right. I've said this before. If, if… You're probably not a legit campus if someone hasn't protested on your campus. Right. Right. So you go back to Earth First in the '80s. I mean, you go back to Earth First. I go, I go back to being a kid in the Bay Area. Vietnam War. Vietnam War. We had the Symbionese Liberation Army. Sure. The SLA. Watched them, well, not personally, but th- kidnap Patty Hearst back then. We had the- Was that done there in Oakland? That was in Oakland, yeah. That was done in Oakland. Where she was ki- where she was kidnapped? And for whatever reason, they loved to rob the Wells Fargo bank on Ashby and King Street, up the street from my church. They just liked that bank. Yeah, they loved that bank. It paid well. That bank would end up hiring police officers. There was a si- so I went to church at Progressive Missionary Baptist Church right down the street from that- Oh … Wells Fargo, and the videos that you've seen of Patty Hearst walking around, some of them were in that Wells Fargo bank. Oh. And they would end up hiring police officers. That's famous video. Yeah. That's famous footage, yeah. The- Patty … sign says, "Your teller may be an off-duty, uh, law enforcement officer." It got that bad, right?

John Packer: Wow. In any case. And he's packing heat. And he's packing. And, uh, I mean, even as a high school student, I saw

John Packer: we, we had the benefit of looking at the

John Packer: earlier baby boomers and seeing the, the damage all the drug use had done to them and going, "Yeah, it's a good cause, but I'm not, not going that way- Right … with my protest." Right. And, uh, so we, we ended up, I remember in high school, we had the, um, the Revolutionary Communist Youth Brigade- Whoa … that showed up at our school. Huh. And we went and got, like- This is high school? High school … cartons of old milk and oranges and just beaned them for two days. Just thumped them. Every… Just thumped them. Just thumped them. And then they- Well … they didn't come back.

John Packer: Yeah. They smelled bad afterward. It was bad. Huh. Oranges and milk is not a good- Were the Black Panthers around in that, in those days? Black Panthers were… So here's the thing with the Black Panthers. Now, I'm not gonna condone them or, or, or say- And there's Hells Angels, too … there's Hells Angels, there's Bl- so we had Hells Angels, we had Black Panthers, we had the Symbionese Liberation Army. Synanon was open then, so there was communes that were out there and stuff like that. Sure. And, um, but as far as the Black Panthers were concerned, y- you know, they didn't affect, bother, create… Now, maybe if you were up on Telegraph or Shattuck, you, you might run into, you know, protests led by the Black Panthers. But in our communities, um, they were responsible for afterschool pro- or afterschool lunches, you know- Right … summertime lunches, things like that, so. Right. Yeah, there was nev- there wasn't a clash with, with the Black Panthers by any stretch of the imagination. I would imagine some of my parents' friends were, were, were Black Panthers. Whereas Hells Angels were in the middle of all of it, probably. They're mel- they're in there. And, and Hells Angels were used in a different way as well. Well, they were just more chaotic and- Yeah, they're k- they're making money. Yeah. Yeah, they were. Making… Doing drugs. They were running drugs, running, running weapons- Yeah … like they are today and- Like they, like they do … making money. Yeah. Yeah. Some things never change. No. Um, love you, Hells Angels. Uh, maybe. So, uh, back to Humboldt.

John Packer: Yeah. So- So it did go well. Everybody di- did play their position correctly. They did play their positions correctly. So you, you have students that are going to…

John Packer: So you have, you have a war between Israel that's taking place on the Gaza Strip against Hezbollah, affecting, im- directly impacting Palestinians, right? Sure. An area where they've been forced by an accord.

John Packer: And

John Packer: common sense should tell you to have an op plan for your college campus for that. Mm-hmm. A, a plan. And, um, it should- A protest plan. A protest plan. Yeah. By admin and, and- By, by, yeah … UPD, everybody knows. Yeah, everyone. That, that sits down and go, "Okay, at some point in time, something's gonna happen on this campus." Wait a second. These guys didn't have anything going? I don't, I don't know, but I'm saying what, what played out, uh, appeared to be working just behind the curve, um, on, on that issue. Yeah. So-You should have a conversation, well, where are they, what are they gonna try and take over? It's gonna be the president's office.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

John Packer: Yeah. Def- guaranteed.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Yeah. What is that gonna look like? What's that gonna look like?

Scott Hammond: It's all Seaman's Hall.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: The whole hall.

John Packer: Seaman's Hall.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: What do we have? And so we're gonna get, we'll just get into this a little bit. Like we can unpack it a little bit. Two floors to Seaman's Hall. First floor is a classroom.

Scott Hammond: Yep.

John Packer: Second floor and is the president's office, but what's more important is human resources personnel, the second floor.

Scott Hammond: Key.

John Packer: So that's key.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Because if you lose control of that, which they did for over a week, you cannot guarantee that you have control over personnel files anymore.

Scott Hammond: Right. That's data, money.

John Packer: That's data, that's money, that's hard files in filing cabinets.

Scott Hammond: Grades.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: That's how much money you make, where you live.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

John Packer: All that, all that information. Um, so that's compromised. And, um, so you have to think about those things.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: Okay? Um, the same way when, um, I was younger, when, you know, I worked on a SWAT team.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: And we wrote threat assessments for different places on

John Packer: campus.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: So I've written plans or reports on what happens. This is a key building, Seaman's Hall is one of them, there's others on campus, that we have to always maintain control of because-

Scott Hammond: So there's a game plan.

John Packer: There's a game plan there.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Well, it's got kinda like guarding the hill.

John Packer: Right.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: And, and you, you don't know what's gonna happen, but you know what's going to

John Packer: happen.

Scott Hammond: They didn't, they didn't take Van Duzen Theater.

John Packer: You don't have to have a plan for Van Duzen Theater.

Scott Hammond: It's-

John Packer: But you probably have to have a plan for the president's office and where you care… Where your IT is located and where your, uh, where your personnel files are located.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

John Packer: That does… Where you don't lose control of it.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

John Packer: And, um, and that didn't happen. And then to, to make matters worse, when you did move in, it was not sufficient. Um, it, it, it was not in a tactical way that was sufficient. The idea was good, but the, the tactical approach was not-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … not sufficient. So, um, w- I talked about this earlier. Um, if you're going to put a plan into place from a law enforcement standpoint-

Scott Hammond: You have to win

John Packer: … you have to win.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: You have to win. Not illegally, right?

Scott Hammond: Right.

John Packer: But you have to win.

Scott Hammond: It's gotta be a win-win.

John Packer: You gotta be, yeah, you gotta win, okay? You, you can't say, "Oh, shucks."

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: You know, um, you, you can't… Now, to, to law enforcement's, um, just to flip on the other side, after the first couple hours, you know, the law enforcement is not making decisions on that.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: So the president's office, vice presidents, chief of staff, that, tho- those individuals who… So once incident command is established-

Scott Hammond: Mm

John Packer: … and that executive team is there, then, uh, law enforcement is… And, and they're always taking orders, there's someone always in charge.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: But that, um, that rapid response that happens in that first couple hours-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … um, is definitely boots on the ground, sergeant, lieutenant, chief-

Scott Hammond: Mm

John Packer: … individuals as they move through, um, based on what

John Packer: they know-

Scott Hammond: Right

John Packer: … their administration allows them to do.

Scott Hammond: So is your guess the president made the calls thereafter or his

Scott Hammond: team?

John Packer: The team would've.

Scott Hammond: Okay.

John Packer: The, the team would've.

Scott Hammond: His admin team.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: So their admin team that-

Scott Hammond: But ultimately he, he-

John Packer: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … buck stops there.

John Packer: Yeah. It's, it's, it's his, it's his decision.

Scott Hammond: Oh.

John Packer: Um, and so they have to consider him in that.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Um-

Scott Hammond: So after that, it just felt all out of control for seven days. It's just like-

John Packer: It was

Scott Hammond: … like the campus is closed and-

John Packer: The campus is closed. You have to, you kinda have to close the campus because it's in a central place.

Scott Hammond: It's a safety issue, right?

John Packer: Yeah, it's, yeah, it is.

Scott Hammond: Other people could come on and-

John Packer: Well, and then if you look at… So you can go online right now and you can run out the numbers on who was arrested. The majority of them weren't students, weren't even from this area.

Scott Hammond: Correct. I was gonna bring that-

John Packer: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … like, like two-thirds.

John Packer: Yeah, two, yeah, like 30 something people got arrested.

Scott Hammond: Crazy.

John Packer: Um, but here's the problem with… You know, so now you've got how does Humboldt handle this after that? So let's set aside what's behind us, and looking forward, we wanna make sure that-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … um, you know, do we get, does Humboldt get the Department of Justice in to look at this as a crime scene?

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: How do they sort through what was compromised at HR?

Scott Hammond: Okay.

John Packer: Um, I looked at one of the, um, the cases there, and they have a criminal threats case, um, the morning of, and a 236, which is, um, kinda like a kidnapping, but false imprisonment.

Scott Hammond: Oh, wow.

John Packer: So, so there's things that, that have to be considered. Were there students involved in this that when it got to the point where they locked that place down as activist protesters-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … uh, were there students there who didn't wanna be there but couldn't leave-

Scott Hammond: Uh-huh

John Packer: … because they felt compelled to stay?

Scott Hammond: Is that true?

John Packer: I don't know.

Scott Hammond: Oh, okay.

John Packer: But you have to look into that.

Scott Hammond: You have to ask them.

John Packer: Part of the… You have to ask that question.

Scott Hammond: Gotta get curious on that.

John Packer: You have to get curious. You have to dig into that.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: Um, professors that were there.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Um, if it, if you're a… We don't have a football team anymore, so I'll use that. So if you have a football team and your football coach suits up with the team and goes out and busts heads, you fire the coach.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. He's gone.

John Packer: That's not his role, right?

Scott Hammond: It's not your job description.

John Packer: Not your job description.

Scott Hammond: Bro.

John Packer: He don't join. What are you thinking, okay? Uh, so there's that. So that, it's, it's a train wreck up there. We'll have to see what happens with it.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. Yeah, it's too bad.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: You know, it's funny. Cl- I could watch Columbia on TV and go, "Oh, that's too bad in New York." But when it's your hometown, it's your, your, your home turf, your alma mater, your friends, people that have

Scott Hammond: jobs here-

John Packer: Yeah

Scott Hammond: … it's like, it's real personal.

John Packer: Yes. It is.

Scott Hammond: And, you know, my son goes, "Well, Dad, that's what a protest is. It's supposed to…" Well, I don't think a protest is supposed to do 2 million in damage-

John Packer: Right

Scott Hammond: … to state property, and I'm okay with it. It's like I, I'm not okay with it on a whole bunch of levels.

John Packer: Right. Well, think about that. So it's 2 million at this point. I heard 1.6 at the first. It's gone up. Sh- what if in the first three hours you had to deploy the chemical agent or some type of force and you, there'd been some damage, right? Uh, uh, well, you wouldn't have had $2 million worth of damage.

Scott Hammond: The protest could have gone on, uh, I don't know.

John Packer: Yeah. And you could still have a protest. I'm not saying don't, don't s- you know, s-

Scott Hammond: L.K. Wood could have been a big, giant protest.

John Packer: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: The, the, the, the quad

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: That's hard. It, it, it's, it's hard with the freedoms that we have.

John Packer: Right. But I love students. Love 'em to death.

Scott Hammond: Oh, man.

John Packer: Absolutely. That's, I mean, that's why we spend time at Teleios doing stuff.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: Um, that's time we, we have Bible studies a- and so, so yeah, my focus really is… And for my wife and I, whose name might be Betty- Um, which is actually kind of okay, 'cause it's not her, it's not her, not her real

John Packer: name.

Scott Hammond: It's not her real name. Yeah.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: False name.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: It actually isn't. That's just her nickname that her sister-

Scott Hammond: Nice

John Packer: … called her 'cause her sister's dyslexic, but,

John Packer: um,

John Packer: so-

Scott Hammond: Wait, what is it spelled backwards?

Scott Hammond: Wait.

John Packer: No, it's not it's not Debbie either.

John Packer: De- Deddy.

Scott Hammond: Yeah, Yaddy. Yabby.

John Packer: Yevitt.

Scott Hammond: Yevitt.

John Packer: Um, you know, so, you know, what, what we're doing right now in my retirement, and she's never gonna retire she says, 'cause she's working with kids, is just we wanna impact, um, families.

Scott Hammond: Nice.

John Packer: We wanna impact the, uh, kids that are, that are here in this county.

John Packer: Um, they're-

Scott Hammond: Good

John Packer: … growing up, they're meeting each other, they're getting married, they're having kids. And we get to, you know, we get to experience that with them-

Scott Hammond: Love it

John Packer: … and kinda just say, "Hey, look, we've been married for 33 years, so you wanna have a talk about what it's like to be, um, John and Betty and be married in a, a, an interracial with biracial kids and, and-

Scott Hammond: Right

John Packer: … then, then let's have a chat. We, we can talk to you about that."

Scott Hammond: Nice. No, that's a great legacy, and think you're, you're living it. You know, a lot of people come here and said, "Hey, I, you know, going to create jobs. I wanna create a…" You're creating legacy through a lot of other means. So what is it, what are we saying at your, uh, your, uh, celebration of life? What's your f- what's your, uh, your tombstone gonna say,

Scott Hammond: John?

John Packer: I'm not gonna have a tombstone.

Scott Hammond: You're not? Okay.

John Packer: No. Oh, no. I, no, I'm just kidding. So, so we've had that conversation.

Scott Hammond: What's the phrase gonna be that it's out online?

John Packer: I don't-

Scott Hammond: Online

John Packer: … know. Packer. I don't know. Sarge, something like that. I don't know. So I had a conversation with, um, my kids kind of in a funny way, 'cause we have family members that have gone through some pretty traumatic, uh… My mom passed away from Alzheimer's, succumbed to Alzheimer's-

Scott Hammond: Wow

John Packer: … so that was brutal-

Scott Hammond: Really tough

John Packer: … for 12 years.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

John Packer: Between the dementia and Alzheimer's.

Scott Hammond: Wow.

John Packer: Um, my father-

Scott Hammond: Not uncommon.

John Packer: Not uncommon, no.

Scott Hammond: Yeah.

John Packer: My father had a, a, a cancerous growth, um, between his brain and his, uh, in his skull-

Scott Hammond: Mm

John Packer: … um, that took him. Um, my wife's going through that or similar thing with her parents right now. There's just… You know, I've seen friends on tubes and things like that.

Scott Hammond: Mm.

John Packer: And, um, so I, I told my kids, I said, "Yo, when, if that happens, if I get to that point…" So first of all, I'll, I, I wanna decide how I go, where I go, when

John Packer: it happens.

Scott Hammond: Sure.

John Packer: Um, or I want it to happen like that.

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm.

John Packer: So I said half jokingly, um, "If I get that diagnosis-

Scott Hammond: Mm-hmm

John Packer: … and I, I'm, I'm not, th- there's no tubes, there's no nothing, right?"

Scott Hammond: Right.

John Packer: Or we're not, we're not doing that. "I'm gonna send you a text," or however we're communicating back then, "letting you know that I've got my backpack, and I'm headed to base camp for

John Packer: Everest." "And I'm going on a freaking walk."

John Packer: And I mean-

Scott Hammond: Is that code? Is that code or actual Everest?

John Packer: That's actual. No. I'm, I'm act- I'm gonna either make it-

Scott Hammond: I'm on a boat

John Packer: … um, partway there or all the way there, and wherever, where- wherever it happens, that's, that's where-

Scott Hammond: Yeah

John Packer: … I'm gonna be.

Scott Hammond: You can come get me.

John Packer: Come get me. Come get me. But I'm not-

Scott Hammond: I like it

John Packer: … I'm not, I don't want to go like that. So in my mind, I mean, you don't have a say in how that happens, you know, but-

Scott Hammond: No, you don't

John Packer: … but just to express that to-

Scott Hammond: Well, John Packer, appreciate your friendship and you being here.

John Packer: Anytime.

Scott Hammond: Yeah. And, uh, thanks for leaving that, continuing to leave that legacy.

John Packer: Thank you.

Scott Hammond: And, uh, the folks at Teleios, man, they're just great. Jim, shout out to Jim Thomas.

John Packer: Yes, our pastor over there and-

Scott Hammond: Yeah, good guy. Teleios.org?

John Packer: Sure.

Scott Hammond: Sure, it's something.

John Packer: It does sound like that.

Scott Hammond: You can find it. It's-

John Packer: You can f- you can find it.

Scott Hammond: T-E-L-I-O-S, yeah. Oh, shout out for those guys.

John Packer: Yeah.

Scott Hammond: All right. Hey, thanks for coming. Have a great day.

John Packer: All right. Thank you.